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Originally posted by Palynkai'd have carrick and hargreaves as my central midfield pairing over lampard and essien any day.
[b] I could go on, and on and on.
You might have to.
Neville is utter tosh, captain or not, while Terry is decent (even if not half as good as he's portrayed to be).
Drogba (especially before this season and he's talking about the previous one) owns Saha so much it's almost an insult to name them in the same breadth.
Comparing Essien with Hargr ...[text shortened]... rt of the game. They're unfortunate, but they don't remove any merit away from the winners.[/b]
remind us again which duo won the league and champs league last year and who won nothing.
you're right about neville, he's to old not to play competitively every week. and yes drogba is a lot better than saha.
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Originally posted by trev33The pairing of Lampard and Essien have just as many league titles as the pairing of Carrick and Hargreaves.
i'd have carrick and hargreaves as my central midfield pairing over lampard and essien any day.
remind us again which duo won the league and champs league last year and who won nothing.
you're right about neville, he's to old not to play competitively every week. and yes drogba is a lot better than saha.
I'd take Lampard and Essien over Carrick and Hargreaves every time. More strength, pace, creativity and goals.
Originally posted by trev33Manchester isn't a two-player team and neither is Chelsea. Personally, I'd say what made the difference was the difference in the form of the forward and back lines. In midfield, I think Chelsea still had the upper hand.
i'd have carrick and hargreaves as my central midfield pairing over lampard and essien any day.
remind us again which duo won the league and champs league last year and who won nothing.
you're right about neville, he's to old not to play competitively every week. and yes drogba is a lot better than saha.
I'm a big fan of Essien, less so of Lampard, but I'd definitely take those two over Carrick and Hargreaves.
Originally posted by PalynkaI agree with everything you've said really.
Manchester isn't a two-player team and neither is Chelsea. Personally, I'd say what made the difference was the difference in the form of the forward and back lines. In midfield, I think Chelsea still had the upper hand.
I'm a big fan of Essien, less so of Lampard, but I'd definitely take those two over Carrick and Hargreaves.
The Chelsea central 2 are a little better but the team as a whole wins the League and Champions League in Uniteds case.
I would however point out that its a squad game now so Uniteds central midfield these days is:-
Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson, Scholes, Giggs, Fletcher.
Chelsea's is:-
Essien, Lampard, Obi One Kenobi, Deco, Ballack
To win the league i'd say Uniteds is stronger.
Originally posted by Daemon SinMaybe i wasn't clear enough with the title of this thread.
So much for those "Man City can win the league" predictions!
It should of read "From now onwards only 3 teams can win the Premier League"
I never expected or predicted that City would win the league this season, I thought they may finish in the top 4 but I didn't expect them to have such a poor 1st half under Hughes.
As for next season though I definately think that Manchester City will have a big say in who wins the league.
The squad could easily contain players like Kaka, Torres, Messi, Sergio Aguero, Terry, Buffon, Ronaldo, Gerrard.
Have AC Milan turned down 130m for Kaka, no its up to the player to decide.
Would Liverpool turn down 130m for Torres - No!
Would United turn down 130m for Ronaldo, Gill has already said we would consider it.
Would Juventus turn down 100m for Buffon - No!
Lets see what happens.
Originally posted by PalynkaI'm amazed how non-United fans think half of our team over the past decade have been rubbish(Nevilles, Rio, O'Shea, Carrick, Saha, etc), despite the amount of honours they have won as part of the Manchester United team.
[b] I could go on, and on and on.
You might have to.
Neville is utter tosh, captain or not, while Terry is decent (even if not half as good as he's portrayed to be).
Drogba (especially before this season and he's talking about the previous one) owns Saha so much it's almost an insult to name them in the same breadth.
Comparing Essien with Hargr ...[text shortened]... rt of the game. They're unfortunate, but they don't remove any merit away from the winners.[/b]
There's no point directly comparing the relative merits of each player, what my exercise was to show was that when players with equal importance to their respective sides were compared, United were missing more first team players and for longer.
Neville was the best right back in the country by a mile before his injury. He's been slow getting back to form since then, and may never be the same player again. The facts are that he has won the following...
* Premier League (7): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07
* FA Cup (3): 1996, 1999, 2004
* Football League Cup (1): 2006
* FA Community Shield (3): 1996, 1997, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (1): 1999
* Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
a total off 17 club honours. If he hadn't had a career threating injury last season, we could have added another Champs League and Premiership to the list (giving 19). Even excluding the charity shields, it's some achievement for an individual, and also for any team who carry "utter tosh" for so long. Why do you think Ferguson made a terrible player captain, and how many other terrible players has Ferguson persisted with for 17 seasons?
To put this in perspective, Maldini, probably the greatest player ever has 24 club honours from a much longer career.
My point was that United were missing their club captain for 38 league games in 07/08, Chelsea were missing their club captain for 15 games.
United were incredibly light up front last season. Saha missed 21 games, and only managed to be sub for most of the remainder.
This is an excerpt of probably his poorest season...07-08
"In the 2007-08 season, Saha returned from injury and came as a substitute against Sunderland, scoring the winning goal.[8] On 23 September 2007, Saha won and converted a penalty against Chelsea in Chelsea's first game with Avram Grant in charge.[9] This earned Saha a recall to the French national team after a year out.
Against Arsenal, Saha came on to replace the under performing Carlos Tévez in a 2-2 draw.[10] He was key in setting up a goal as Cristiano Ronaldo gave United a 2-1 lead.[10] Saha continued to make appearances off the bench, but when Wayne Rooney was ruled out for a few weeks he partnered Tévez up front. He started on December 26, Boxing Day. Manchester United won the game 4-0 and Saha scored two goals including a penalty to lift Manchester United to 1st position in the Premiership.
Saha made his return in an FA Cup clash versus Arsenal on 16 February 2008. The following weekend, Saha came on as a substitute for Ronaldo, scoring the final goal in a 5-1 rout of Newcastle United.[11] After returning to nearly full fitness, Saha's injury haunts returned"
Have no doubt, a constantly fit Saha would have had a huge influence on United's season, given how light (and physically small) United were up front. It also needs to be considered Saha's goal ratio when he got gamed up...typically 1 in 2.
Drogba on the other hand may be a better player on his day, when he isn't causing trouble.
Again, I'll have to point out that we're not comparing the relative merits of the players, but the importance of the players to their teams. I'm sure you understand the concept.
Essien missed 7 games for Chelsea, Hargreaves missed 15.
Lampard missed 14 league games, Carrick 7.
Scholes missed 14 games through injury, Park missd 26 games (missing until March that season), Foster missed only came back into contention in March.
Despite all their whinging, Chelsea's injury woes didn't come close to Uniteds during the 07/08 season.
I hope we can now lay that meme to bed.
D
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Originally posted by RagnorakThe number of team trophies in someone's cabinet is a poor measure of both quality or importance of the player for the team. Neville is crap and has been for a long time the laughing stock for non-United fans all over the world. He isn't fit to tie Maldini's boots and it's ridiculous that you hint at even an remote sort of comparison.
I'm amazed how non-United fans think half of our team over the past decade have been rubbish(Nevilles, Rio, O'Shea, Carrick, Saha, etc), despite the amount of honours they have won as part of the Manchester United team.
There's no point directly comparing the relative merits of each player, what my exercise was to show was that when players with equal im eds during the 07/08 season.
I hope we can now lay that meme to bed.
D
Also, it's sad that you think that both being captains somehow encapsulates the totality of how important Neville and Terry are for each of their teams.
Comparing Saha's importance for MU with Drogba's in last year's season can only again be done on a pure delusional basis when the latter was the first team striker and Saha a reserve striker. MU's light offense led them to the domestic and CL titles. It's hard to see how tactics with a heavier offense would do better. I won't even comment on the ludicrous 1 in 2 goal ratio of Saha. He scored 28 in 86 appearances by United.
Again, I'll have to point out that we're not comparing the relative merits of the players, but the importance of the players to their teams. I'm sure you understand the concept.
Is that why you spent the paragraph before this one talking about the merits of a player who is perennially injured against Chelsea's main striker? I'm sure you understand the concept of hypocrisy.
Originally posted by Angry BoyYou must be a Very Angry Boy right now.
Obi Wan Kenobi!
Great bit of business by Utd that. Buy for £4M sell for £12M and it turns out that he's not that good after all!
Right, I'm off to the pub (don't have Sheetanta) to watch the Merseyside derby.
Why did Rafa take off both Keane and Torres?
Is Rafa deliberately trying to throw away the title or is he just completely incompetent?
Believe me if United were 0-0 at home against City, Sir Alex would only take off a striker if he had a replacement striker on the bench.
And if we went 1-0 up he would not take off Rooney and leave us strikerless.
Not that I'm complaining.
All we need now is for Chelsea to draw at Anfield on February 1st and the league is over in February 😉
Originally posted by PalynkaThe number of team trophies in someone's cabinet is a poor measure of both quality or importance of the player for the team.
The number of team trophies in someone's cabinet is a poor measure of both quality or importance of the player for the team. Neville is crap and has been for a long time the laughing stock for non-United fans all over the world. He isn't fit to tie Maldini's boots and it's ridiculous that you hint at even an remote sort of comparison.
Also, it's sad that ...[text shortened]... gainst Chelsea's main striker? I'm sure you understand the concept of hypocrisy.
How would you like to rate him if you discard his longevity in the best team in the world with such ignorant nonchalance?
How about records for his national team? Record holder for a right back and record number of appearances in European Championships?
How about how he is viewed by his fellow professionals? PFA team of the year '97, '98, '99, '05 and '07. Do you know how many players have made the team more than 5 times? 3: Henry, Vieira and Gerrard.
I'm interested to see how an obvious ignoranus like yourself can justify your ridiculing of a player who is obviously held in the highest esteem by those actually involved in the game.
How can you describe Saha as a reserve team striker. He generally started when he was fit and gamed up. His first team status lead to record breaking Ruud moving on. It's hard to be a first team player, when you are injured every second day.
MU's light offense led them to the domestic and CL titles. It's hard to see how tactics with a heavier offense would do better.
Ok, Palonka... Tevez and Rooney are obviously giants of men, all 5' 6.5" of Tevez and 5' 10" of Rooney. The tactics United would use with those two up front are obviously the EXACT same as when we have a 6' 1" player up front.
How could United have done better? They could have won the quadruple. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how the above scenario is better than how the season ended, although given your statement above, it seems like you're wearing your idiot hat again, so let me know if you want me to explain more clearly how 4 trophies is better than 2.
I won't even comment on the ludicrous 1 in 2 goal ratio of Saha. He scored 28 in 86 appearances by United.
Read the qualifier and get back to me. FACT is Saha scored 7 in 10 when he joined and was fully fit AND gamed up.
Another FACT is that in 05-06, he gained fitness in November and pretty much kept it for the rest of the season... 14 in 30.
Here's another FACT for you...
"Saha began the 2006-07 season in great form, scoring only 7 minutes into the first game versus Fulham.[6] In December 2006, he signed an extension to his contract[7] lasting to 2010, though soon after began suffering from more injury problems. Groin and hamstring injuries restricted appearances and meant he only scored one goal in the 2nd half of the season. He returned as substitute at Roma but then soon picked up a knee injury. Saha's excellent pre-Christmas form had led to him bagging 15 goals in all competitions."
Is that why you spent the paragraph before this one talking about the merits of a player who is perennially injured against Chelsea's main striker? I'm sure you understand the concept of hypocrisy.
Where? As far as I'm concerned, there was no direct comparison. I listed Saha's attributes and stats to highlight a fit Saha's importance to United. Then I made a comment about Drogba.
I can't make out whether you have your idiot hat or your trolling hat on. Looks like trolling hat, seeing as your posts lack any substantial content beyond flames, but you never can tell.
D
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Originally posted by RagnorakLOL! So as long as statements are in different paragraphs, it's not hypocritical.
I listed Saha's attributes and stats to highlight a fit Saha's importance to United. Then I made a comment about Drogba.
I can't be bothered with you. Even ROAB and AB agreed with what I said before. That alone should tell you how uncontroversial the comments were, except for the most insisting trolls. You can have the rubber chicken. Have fun with it.
Originally posted by PalynkaYour statements may have been true in their own right, but as a reply to my original post detailing how United were affected worse by injuries than Chelsea, it was no rebuttal as your direct comparisons were irrelevant to the point I made.
LOL! So as long as statements are in different paragraphs, it's not hypocritical.
I can't be bothered with you. Even ROAB and AB agreed with what I said before. That alone should tell you how uncontroversial the comments were, except for the most insisting trolls. You can have the rubber chicken. Have fun with it.
To simplify still further, lets assume United had only 1 goal keeper in their squad. That goalkeeper is Massimo Taibi. Chelsea have Cech, formerly one of the top 2 or 3 keepers in the world, AND 2 reserve keepers. An injury to Taibi would hit United much harder than an injury to Cech, irrespective of their relative merits.
I'll assume your acquiescence on Neville, considering your ignoring of all the FACTS presented.
Next time I go to the bother of doing a load of research during a football debate with you, remind me not to bother. My footballing FACTS have no chance against your supah semantics and paragraph structure POWAH!!
D
Originally posted by Rooney Once a BlueEasy tiger! That's starting to sound like a Bill Clinton denial.
Maybe i wasn't clear enough with the title of this thread.
It should of read "From now onwards only 3 teams can win the Premier League"
I never expected or predicted that City would win the league this season, I thought they may finish in the top 4 but I didn't expect them to have such a poor 1st half under Hughes.
As for next season thou ...[text shortened]... would consider it.
Would Juventus turn down 100m for Buffon - No!
Lets see what happens.
Anyway, Kaka's turned the deal down apparently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/7838966.stm
Originally posted by Daemon SinFunny isn't it.
Easy tiger! That's starting to sound like a Bill Clinton denial.
Anyway, Kaka's turned the deal down apparently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/7838966.stm
Only Manchester City could have a transfer pot of $500m and buy Bellamy, Parker, De Jong (who?) and pi*s off Robinho so much he flys back to Brasil.
"54 players that are no bloody good,
City are a massive football club!"
😵