Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    12 Mar '18 03:51
    Really good news for everyone who want to see Europe stay European.

    This is just like how Marine Le Pen performed very strong with the younger demographics but was ultimately sabotaged by what can be referred to as the Old Right or perhaps we could pejoratively say 'the cuck right.'

    The populist 5 Star Movement (M5S), which has promised to implement a universal basic income and be tough on mass migration, received the most votes with close to half, or 43 per cent. Second was the right-wing populist La Lega which garnered 19 per cent of the support of the first-time voters.

    The establishment left-wing Democratic Party (PD) came last with young people with a mere 12 per cent of their vote, despite numerous attempts to get the youth vote with a 500 euro “culture bonus” payment scheme.


    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/03/11/75-per-cent-first-time-young-italian-voters-marked-ballots-populist-parties/

    I definitely sense a lot of antipathy towards globalism and a desire to undo the policies of the boomers and the Xers.

    Simple liberalism is just not popular anymore because it cannot accurately describe reality, and the identity of the politics of the left is apparently what is slotted to replace it. It could be a very ugly future if these youngsters do not keep stepping up to the plot.

    Oh, and just a reminder for the "Breitbart OMG fake news" geniuses...

    "The data, which was compiled by Italian polling firm SWG, shows that the vast majority of young first time voters reject the political establishment, Italian poll-tracking website Termometro Politico reports."
  2. Behind the scenes
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    12 Mar '18 05:38
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Really good news for everyone who want to see Europe stay European.

    This is just like how Marine Le Pen performed very strong with the younger demographics but was ultimately sabotaged by what can be referred to as the Old Right or perhaps we could pejoratively say 'the cuck right.'

    [quote]The populist 5 Star Movement (M5S), which has promised to ...[text shortened]... ect the political establishment, Italian poll-tracking website Termometro Politico reports."
    [/b]
    These folks have become very specific about what they don't want, however they're pretty hazy about what they do want.
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    12 Mar '18 06:05
    Right.

    What is funny is that the Charles Murray book [u]The Strange Death of Europe[/u] actually outlined how many European electorates have been anti-immigrant since the first polls were seriously being taken in the seventies and eighties. There appears to actually have never been any real movement of the electorate towards this, and, indeed, it has been unpopular for a very long time.

    I think we just have greater number of young people recognizing this for the disaster that it is as they see their home countries transformed.

    Honestly, if the EU had nothing to do with pushing immigration & rote globalism on people and was more interested in just free borders between Europe, a common currency, and facilitating trade, it'd probably have almost none of this Euroscpeticism.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Mar '18 06:56
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Really good news for everyone who want to see Europe stay European.

    This is just like how Marine Le Pen performed very strong with the younger demographics but was ultimately sabotaged by what can be referred to as the Old Right or perhaps we could pejoratively say 'the cuck right.'

    [quote]The populist 5 Star Movement (M5S), which has promised to ...[text shortened]... ect the political establishment, Italian poll-tracking website Termometro Politico reports."
    [/b]
    I suppose you lack sufficient self-awareness to see the hypocrisy of deriding "liberalism" for its supposed use of "identity politics" while crowing about a supposed victory for "Europe to stay European".

    From what I understand, 5 Star has very little in common with Le Pen; their main planks to use government policies to expand youth employment and implement a universal basic income seem pretty "liberal" to me. Your thesis that young people are rejecting "liberalism" en masse in the West hardly explains the voting patterns in the US.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Mar '18 07:06
    This 5 Star Movement candidate doesn't sound like anyone Philo should be happy about:

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The movement was born in 2009 out of popular anger and disillusionment with the established political parties, and today it may represent Italy’s best chance to curb decades of corruption and waste in the public sector and deliver much-needed economic reforms. Far from advocating an exit from the eurozone, the movement calls for greater cooperation with Brussels to address common challenges to the EU, from the migrant and refugee crisis to the phasing out of fossil fuels and the development of renewable energy.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Berlusconi and his allies have already governed Italy three times in the past two decades, most recently from 2008 to 2011. When in power, his governments failed to reduce political waste and mismanagement, and were ultimately unable to kickstart the Italian economy. There is little hope that this time would be any different. In fact, it could be worse, given that the right as a whole is today hostage to the League, whose aggressive anti-immigrant leader, Matteo Salvini, is angling for greater influence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/07/five-star-movement-govern-italy-corruption-economy-berlusconi
  6. Subscriberkmax87
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    12 Mar '18 08:181 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    ....From what I understand, 5 Star has very little in common with Le Pen; their main planks to use government policies to expand youth employment and implement a universal basic income seem pretty "liberal" to me.
    I think Phil- No-Lika-Pastry doesn't see liberalism in any policy that directly benefits whi... I mean European people.
  7. Unknown Territories
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    12 Mar '18 08:34
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    I think Phil- No-Lika-Pastry doesn't see liberalism in any policy that directly benefits whi... I mean European people.
    Can't speak for Phil, but it could have something to do with how one views liberalism as a concept.
    The difference between traditional liberalism and the mutation currently affixed with the descriptor is so vast as to be irreconcilable.
  8. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    12 Mar '18 09:27
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I suppose you lack sufficient self-awareness to see the hypocrisy of deriding "liberalism" for its supposed use of "identity politics" while crowing about a supposed victory for "Europe to stay European".

    From what I understand, 5 Star has very little in common with Le Pen; their main planks to use government policies to expand youth employment and i ...[text shortened]... e are rejecting "liberalism" en masse in the West hardly explains the voting patterns in the US.
    "Identity politics" does not exist in Korea.

    Why?

    Because 95%+ of the population is Korean; 98%+ of the permanent population is Korean. Women have achieved a good amount of equality in employment though, of course, there are still bad looking numbers in a few sections, but by and large there is _zero glass ceiling_. Our last President, for instance, was a female, and prominent women politicians have been the norm. The leader of the far left is female, for instance, and PGH was previously a bit Trumpesque (e.g., socially generally conservative and hawkish in foreign politics but surprisingly liberal fiscally).

    It is not identity politics unless we are talking about pitting elements of the nation against each other. Hard to do that when there really isn't any feeling of fracture.

    Identity politics specifically references the sort of "intersctionality" that is now popular; the sort that talks about one's status as a minority, and this goes far beyond one's ethnic status and delves very deeply into questions of gender and sexual minorities.
  9. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    12 Mar '18 09:37
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    This 5 Star Movement candidate doesn't sound like anyone Philo should be happy about:

    Coalition politics, however, stands in the way of a Five Star government. Berlusconi can count on the support of several rightwing parties, most prominently the anti-immigrant and anti-EU League, which received 18% of the vote.

    ----------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... dian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/07/five-star-movement-govern-italy-corruption-economy-berlusconi
    The 5SM has always been regularly touted as Eurosceptic:

    The M5S is variously considered populist,[15][16] anti-establishment,[16][17] environmentalist,[18] alter-globalist[19] and Eurosceptic.[20] Grillo himself provocatively once referred to it as "populist".[21] Its members stress that the M5S is not a party but a "movement" and it may not be included in the traditional left–right paradigm. The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues for the party: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism. The party also advocates e-democracy, direct democracy,[22] the principle of "zero-cost politics",[23] degrowth,[24] and nonviolence.[25] In foreign policy, the M5S has criticized military interventions of the West in the Greater Middle East (Afghanistan, Iraq,[26] Libya) as well as any notion of American intervention in Syria.[27]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Star_Movement

    And if you paid attention to Italy at all, the 5SM was very much interested in taking the temperature of the nation and flirting with an exit from the EU, or a total restructuring. Something which everyone knows could definitely happen because with Brexit the EU doesn't have much of a leg to stand on, not to mention there is not someone overly friendly in the White House to likewise tip energeis that way.

    Remember this?

    This is from February of last year:

    5SM have pledged to hold a referendum on euro membership, however, Italy's legal system forbids referendums that are governed by international treaties. As a compromise, 5SM has suggested it could arrange a non-binding "consultative" ballot in an attempt to understand public opinion and potentially force through a referendum should citizens be in favor of leaving the single currency behind.


    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/09/disenchanted-and-anti-euro-italy-troubling-for-the-future-of-the-eu-analyst.html

    My interest in 5SM stems not much further than their populism...

    ... And if you think I am some Neoconservative, think again. I am not. Why would I oppose environmentalism? Why would I oppose socialis tinterference with the economy? You think that I am somehow a classic "white nationalist" or cartoon racist but have zero concept of what the 'Third Position' actually means for people.

    Most classic Nationalist movements are simultaneously anti-Marxist and anti-Capitalist, and they are environmentalist but often from a folkish nationalist "blood & soil" perspective or a traditionalist "stewards of the earth perspective."

    But I do assure you... I am not particularly interested in the 5SM. They are a popular movement seeking to radically change the situation there. I'd cast my vote with Lega if I were an Italian, I imagine.

    You should not have so much pride, Marauder. You do not have this one figured out. Feel free to ask questions and do not jump the gun -- it makes you look like a fish out of water.
  10. Standard membershavixmir
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    12 Mar '18 10:56
    This whole thing in Italy is quite worrying.
    Not for Europe as a whole, that's complete bollocks.

    The problem is that Italy has been saying for years that they have problems absorbing the influx of refugees.
    And other European countries don't want to assist, because they themselves have trailers full of right-wing scum just shouting their racist propaganda.

    Welcome to European politics.
    And the whole reason most rational people want the EU / UN / etc. is because we know what we're like... and believe me, nobody wants to see us go down roads already travelled in that bloody respect.
  11. Joined
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    12 Mar '18 11:341 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Really good news for everyone who want to see Europe stay European.

    This is just like how Marine Le Pen performed very strong with the younger demographics but was ultimately sabotaged by what can be referred to as the Old Right or perhaps we could pejoratively say 'the cuck right.'

    [quote]The populist 5 Star Movement (M5S), which has promised to ...[text shortened]... ect the political establishment, Italian poll-tracking website Termometro Politico reports."
    [/b]
    Liberals, like libertarians, are merely pawns on the collectivist chess board.

    They are only as good as they can be used to consolidate power.

    Liberals were used by leftists for a time when it was convenient, but they can only be used so much because they tend to support things like free speech, something left wingers hate. They also promote diversity, something left wingers also hate.

    Just look at your typical college in the US today. They shout down points of view that are not PC and label you a hatemonger.

    The leftists are in control now and all we can do is await their Stalinist leader to make heads start to roll.

    Leftism is now the predominate global religion.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Mar '18 14:201 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    The 5SM has always been regularly touted as Eurosceptic:

    [quote]The M5S is variously considered populist,[15][16] anti-establishment,[16][17] environmentalist,[18] alter-globalist[19] and Eurosceptic.[20] Grillo himself provocatively once referred to it as "populist".[21] Its members stress that the M5S is not a party but a "movement" and it may not b ...[text shortened]... eel free to ask questions and do not jump the gun -- it makes you look like a fish out of water.
    Philo: Most classic Nationalist movements are simultaneously anti-Marxist and anti-Capitalist, and they are environmentalist but often from a folkish nationalist "blood & soil" perspective or a traditionalist "stewards of the earth perspective."

    Your "classic Nationalist movements" sound a lot like the Nazis.

    5 Star seems to derive much of its support from the Left and its 5 Stars are all leftist positions.

    Arrogance while spouting ignorance seems to be your modus operandi.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Mar '18 14:28
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    "Identity politics" does not exist in Korea.

    Why?

    Because 95%+ of the population is Korean; 98%+ of the permanent population is Korean. Women have achieved a good amount of equality in employment though, of course, there are still bad looking numbers in a few sections, but by and large there is _zero glass ceiling_. Our last President, for instanc ...[text shortened]... d one's ethnic status and delves very deeply into questions of gender and sexual minorities.
    [/b]
    The irony of a Westerner living in South Korea while praising a form of nationalist, ethnic cleansing is almost head spinning.

    Nationalism based on ethnicity is just as much "identity politics" as anything the Left does.
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    12 Mar '18 14:33
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The irony of a Westerner living in South Korea while praising a form of nationalist, ethnic cleansing is almost head spinning.

    Nationalism based on ethnicity is just as much "identity politics" as anything the Left does.
    I have a couple of Western friends living in Japan who alas, fall victim to same doublethink.
  15. Subscriberkmax87
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    12 Mar '18 14:39
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    ...Your typical arrogance while you spout ignorance seems to be your modus operandi.
    You got to cut him some slack no1,
    Philnolika kind of missed the boat, of revelling in the role of being to the manor born among the elite minority where at least the kaffirs still knew their place and were damn grateful for every crumb that fell from the boss' table.

    He'll get over it eventually I'm sure, but for the moment you should go easy on him while he's pining!
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