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Debates Forum

  1. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    31 Mar '16 04:22
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Stephanie Kurlow, an Australian girl (age 14), has received a scholarship
    to help her realize her dream of becoming a professional ballerina.
    In 2010 her parents (Australian father, Russian mother) converted to Islam
    and their children followed suit. That's when Stephanie stopped dancing.
    But she eventually found a way to make her love of dancing comp ...[text shortened]... perform in hijab?
    Should Stephanie Kurlow be encouraged or discouraged from pursuing her dream?
    It depends on which production they're doing and what her roll in it is.
    Inherently there's nothing wrong with wearing whatever.
    However, the dancer is second to the goal of the show.
    If the girl was playing one of 6 white swans set against, say, an ugly duckling, then you can't have her dressed differently, because that would confuse the audience. If she was playing the ugly duckling to 6 swans, then she could (because that roll would call for standing out).

    It's a crappy example, but it's bloody early.
  2. Germany
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    31 Mar '16 06:53
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If I recall correctly, KazetNagorra has severely put down some cultural artifacts
    (e.g. the film 'The Sound of Music' ) that he does not appreciate. So I interpreted his
    post as sarcastic, regarding dancing as a frivolous hobby rather than 'serious business'.
    People can take it as seriously as they would like, but indeed I do not. In general I would say people have a tendency to take everything too goddamn seriously (at the expense of taking real problems seriously) and the world would be a much more agreeable place if they didn't.
  3. The Catbird's Seat
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    31 Mar '16 16:21
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    People can take it as seriously as they would like, but indeed I do not. In general I would say people have a tendency to take everything too goddamn seriously (at the expense of taking real problems seriously) and the world would be a much more agreeable place if they didn't.
    You said a mouthful there, with which I completely agree.
  4. Joined
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    31 Mar '16 18:33
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    To the extent that Australia is a Western society, Stephanie Kurlow is an aspiring Western ballerina.
    She was born in and has grown up in a Western society. She will be trained in a Western society.
    She hopes to perform (mostly) in Western societies. To my ear, in a BBC interview, she
    sounded like an Australian teenage girl, through she's probably mor ...[text shortened]... d to Islam. Phil3000 apparently regards being a Muslim
    and being a Westerner as contradictory.
    Did I really say all that ?
  5. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 18:502 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Do you always find negatives in what people say? Of course dancing is a serious
    business, especially for the performers and we love to see those dancers, 3 of our
    granddaughters are taking dance, we will see how far they progress.
    "Of course dancing is a serious business."
    --Sonhouse

    Sonhouse apparently took KazetNagorra's comment *literally*, which is his misinterpretation.
    KazetNagorra has confirmed that I correctly interpreted his comment 'serious business' as sarcasm.
    KazetNagorra has confirmed that he does *not* take dance (including professional) seriously.

    So Sonhouse and KazetNagorra evidently disagree.
  6. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 18:551 edit
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Did I really say all that ?
    Phil3000 implied that he regards Stephanie Kurlow as *not* a Westerner.
    Given that she was born in and grew up in a Western society (to the extent that Australia
    can be considered a 'Western society' ), the only reason that I can imagine for the Islamophobic
    Phil3000 to imply that is because Stephanie Kurlow has converted to Islam.

    If Phil3000 would like to deny being Islamophobic, I would point out again that Phil3000
    has objected to people in the UK being allowed to name their children 'Muhammad' (or variant spelling).
  7. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 18:59
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    It depends on which production they're doing and what her roll in it is.
    Inherently there's nothing wrong with wearing whatever.
    However, the dancer is second to the goal of the show.
    If the girl was playing one of 6 white swans set against, say, an ugly duckling, then you can't have her dressed differently, because that would confuse the audience. If s ...[text shortened]... because that roll would call for standing out).

    It's a crappy example, but it's bloody early.
    Yes, you have expressed some of what I have been thinking.

    If I were hiring ballerinas, then I would prefer to hire another equally talented ballerina
    ahead of Stephanie Kurlow because that would avoid the potential distraction and the
    inflexibility of assigning roles to her. Only if Stephanie Kurlow were exceptional enough
    to perform as a soloist with distinction, would I consider hiring her.
  8. Cape Town
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    31 Mar '16 19:13
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    My reservation about this is that if she's *uniquely attired* while dancing in a corps de ballet,
    the audience's eyes are going to be drawn more toward her (in contrast with the other normally
    attired ballerinas) more on account of what she's wearing rather than how she's dancing.
    It's a distraction (though perhaps tolerable) to have one ballerina singled out for her
    appearance than for her exceptional performance or talent.
    The same happens to some extent when a ballerina looks significantly different for other reasons such as being black skinned or unusually tall or short. But it can be worked around. For a start, they could have all the other ballerinas match her attire, or partially match, or have everyone different. Or they can give her parts that do not require her to match.
    It would of course restrict the roles she can play.

    I wonder what her feeling would be with regards to other types of head dress. I believe 'Cats' for example would allow her to wear a headdress it just wouldn't be a hijab or it would cover the hijab.
  9. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 19:21
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The same happens to some extent when a ballerina looks significantly different for other reasons such as being black skinned or unusually tall or short. But it can be worked around. For a start, they could have all the other ballerinas match her attire, or partially match, or have everyone different. Or they can give her parts that do not require her to m ...[text shortened]... ple would allow her to wear a headdress it just wouldn't be a hijab or it would cover the hijab.
    A ballerina has no choice about 'being black skinned or unusually tall or short'.
    I suspect that some ballerinas would not be hired for being 'unusually tall or short', just like
    an aspiring model (with a beautiful face and figure) could be rejected for being too short.
    But a ballerina has a choice about her attire.

    I don't foresee an intrinsic problem with Stephanie Kurlow wearing hijab as a ballet student.
    I concur that a ballerina in hijab would be limited in her professional roles.
  10. Joined
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    31 Mar '16 19:29
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Stephanie Kurlow, an Australian girl (age 14), has received a scholarship
    to help her realize her dream of becoming a professional ballerina.
    In 2010 her parents (Australian father, Russian mother) converted to Islam
    and their children followed suit. That's when Stephanie stopped dancing.
    But she eventually found a way to make her love of dancing comp ...[text shortened]... perform in hijab?
    Should Stephanie Kurlow be encouraged or discouraged from pursuing her dream?
    " she will dance , but only if she's allowed to wear hijab "
    Who's bothered if she dances or not ? more important things in the world than a ballerina prancing about wearing a meaningless garb on her face .
    Is it just another Muslim trying to make a statement I wonder ?
  11. Cape Town
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    31 Mar '16 20:57
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    But a ballerina has a choice about her attire.
    Some Muslims would disagree. I think that if she would rather give up ballet than go without the hijab, then I would not describe that as a choice about her attire.

    I don't foresee an intrinsic problem with Stephanie Kurlow wearing hijab as a ballet student.
    I concur that a ballerina in hijab would be limited in her professional roles.

    Most ballet students never make it to professional level anyway. I think she should not be too concerned about it until she gets there.
  12. The Catbird's Seat
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    31 Mar '16 21:05
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Phil3000 implied that he regards Stephanie Kurlow as *not* a Westerner.
    Given that she was born in and grew up in a Western society (to the extent that Australia
    can be considered a 'Western society' ), the only reason that I can imagine for the Islamophobic
    Phil3000 to imply that is because Stephanie Kurlow has converted to Islam.

    If Phil3000 would ...[text shortened]... ected to people in the UK being allowed to name their children 'Muhammad' (or variant spelling).
    No, you make it a policy to accuse anyone disagreeing with you of Islamophobia. How about for once make an argument from something other than accusation.
  13. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 21:062 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Some Muslims would disagree. I think that if she would rather give up ballet than go without the hijab,
    then I would not describe that as a choice about her attire.

    [b]I don't foresee an intrinsic problem with Stephanie Kurlow wearing hijab as a ballet student.
    I concur that a ballerina in hijab would be limited in her professional roles.

    Most ...[text shortened]... rofessional level anyway. I think she should not be too concerned about it until she gets there.[/b]
    In some societies, Muslim women have a choice about whether (or when) to wear hijab.
    And not every Muslim woman chooses to wear hijab all the time outside her home.
    Stephanie Kurlow also is free to choose her religion. She was not 'born into' Islam.
    Following her parents, she converted to Islam when she was eight years old.
    She may not necessarily choose to remain a Muslim for the rest of her life.

    I concur that Stephanie Kurlow should be able to postpone making a final decision
    about her attire until she has proven that she has professional level ability.
  14. Zugzwang
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    31 Mar '16 21:07
    Originally posted by normbenign
    No, you make it a policy to accuse anyone disagreeing with you of Islamophobia.
    How about for once make an argument from something other than accusation.
    "You make it a policy to accuse anyone of disagreeing with you of Islamophobia."
    --Normbenign

    Another whopping lie by the tireless pathological liar Normbenign.
  15. The Catbird's Seat
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    31 Mar '16 21:34
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "You make it a policy to accuse anyone of disagreeing with you of Islamophobia."
    --Normbenign

    Another whopping lie by the tireless pathological liar Normbenign.
    All anyone has to do, is review the current thread, and a few others to see the truthfulness of my statement.
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