1 edit
@quackquack saidI did not claim that there is no vote fraud ever. There is no evidence of widespread vote fraud on such a scale as to tip the election. This has been certified at state and federal levels, with up to three counts/recounts (the fourth one in AZ does not count anyway, we'll ignore that one). The source of the bogus claim that America's elections are not accurate is Trump; his incentive is huge: as long as he stays in office, he enjoys immunity from prosecution. There is a raft of cases against him, some of them pre-dating his presidency, others of which he triggered during his presidency, some of which carry jail terms if convicted. He desperately wants to stay out of jail. If re-elected (or, the current narrative, if "re-instated" ), then the statute of limitations would expire during his second term, allowing him off the hook. That is his incentive to propagate the myth that America's elections are tainted. Even his own attorney, Sidney Powell, said no reasonable person would believe Trump's "stolen election" narrative.
Saying there is no voting fraud ever because someone certified the result is self serving nonsense. Is there no police brutality if the Capitan certifies the result? Is there no tax fraud if the tax payer or his accountant say that it the return is valid?
It is important that we have systems in place to ensure that only eligible individuals get to vote and that only ...[text shortened]... seen by the millions of dollars spent on influencing people. To say otherwise is actually comical.
So, now, calculate the probability: what is the likelihood that one man desperate to stay out of prison lied -- a man with along record of lying and who has even admitted it (he lied about how bad COVID was, he knew it was bad and lied to the American people about, as he confessed to Bob Woodward). Compared to the likelihood that 50 state election commissioners (some of whom are Rep.) lied, 50 state and federal judges lied, Wm. Barr lied, VP Pence lied, and that 7 million more people's votes for Biden were all faked. Hmmm?
@liljo saidSo, the guy who got pissed because someone at the grocery asked him to pull his mask up, and dumped all his stuff, left the store, came back later and shot the person who asked him to pull his mask up was a criminal?
Sorry for the delay. I got this little thing called "a job."
What was the question?
Oh, guns. I know a LOT of conservatives that support only selling guns to legal citizens. That's not the problem. The problem is that absolutely ZERO gun laws are obeyed by criminals. Criminals disobey laws. It's sort of their "thing." Criminals obtain weapons through any means possible.
...[text shortened]... REARMS. Don't make it harder for law abiding citizens to actually obtain self protection.
Adios.
Well, he is now.
@very-musty saidI saw a page of deleted sonhouse posts back there, I'd say he went on another rant.
The staff at the mental hospital are monitoring him closely.
He has been declining rather rapidly lately 🤔
Maybe he ran out of Geritol.
- Joined
- 28 Feb 16
- Moves
- 5090
@suzianne saidWe can use individual people all day long. How about all the drive by shootings in Chicago? Criminals, or just otherwise normal people who just snapped on a bad day?
So, the guy who got pissed because someone at the grocery asked him to pull his mask up, and dumped all his stuff, left the store, came back later and shot the person who asked him to pull his mask up was a criminal?
Well, he is now.
I don’t get your point. Assuming you have one.
@sonhouse
New Restrictive Laws
EFFECT ON VOTINGBILL NUMBERS
Shorten window to apply for a mail ballotAL HB 538, AR SB 643, GA SB 202, IA SF 413, KY HB 574, OK HB 2663
Shorten deadline to deliver mail ballotAR SB 643
Make it harder to remain on absentee voting listsAZ SB 1485, FL SB 90
Eliminate or limit sending mail ballot applications to voters who do not specifically request themGA SB 202, IA SF 413, KS HB 2332
Eliminate or limit sending mail ballots to voters who do not specifically request themFL SB 90
Restrict assistance in returning a voter’s mail ballotAR HB 1715, FL SB 90, IA SF 413, KS HB 2183, KY HB 574, MT SB 530
Limit the number, location, or availability of mail ballot drop boxesFL SB 90, GA SB 202, IA SF 413, IN SB 398
Impose stricter signature requirements for mail ballotsAZ SB 1003, ID HB 290, KS HB 2183
Tighten or impose voter ID requirements for mail votingFL SB 90, GA SB 202, MT SB 169
Tighten or impose voter ID requirements for in-person votingAR HB 1112, AR HB 1244, MT SB 169, WY HB 75
Expand voter purges or risk faulty voter purgesIA SF 413, FL SB 90, KY HB 574, UT HB 12
Ban snacks and water to voters waiting in lineFL SB 90, GA SB 202
Eliminate Election Day registrationMT HB 176
Reduce polling place availability (locations or hours)IA SF 413, MT SB 196
Limit early voting days or hoursGA SB 202, IA SF 413
Source: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-may-2021
@liljo saidI get your point. Using "whataboutism" to evade my point.
We can use individual people all day long. How about all the drive by shootings in Chicago? Criminals, or just otherwise normal people who just snapped on a bad day?
I don’t get your point. Assuming you have one.
@philokalia said(vi) Nixon resigns in disgrace 5 years later.
There are a lot of people that believe the 1960 election was completely stolen from Nixon by the Democrats, and that it was largely done through fabricating the votes of the dead and black voters in Illinois and Texas.
A brief blip on this:
[quote]The Democrats probably stole Richard Nixon’s 1960 presidential election by “finding” just enough votes in Richard Daley’s ...[text shortened]... org/blogs/nb/scott-whitlock/2016/10/17/speaking-fraud-andrea-mitchell-admits-1960-election-obviously
1 edit
@phranny saidAll this despite the fact, repeat FACT, that fraudulent mail ballots are extremely rare, and that a fraudulently cast ballot does automatically lead to a fraudulently counted ballot.
@sonhouse
New Restrictive Laws
EFFECT ON VOTINGBILL NUMBERS
Shorten window to apply for a mail ballotAL HB 538, AR SB 643, GA SB 202, IA SF 413, KY HB 574, OK HB 2663
Shorten deadline to deliver mail ballotAR SB 643
Make it harder to remain on absentee voting listsAZ SB 1485, FL SB 90
Eliminate or limit sending mail ballot applications to voters who do not specifica ...[text shortened]... SF 413
Source: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-may-2021
“The conservative Heritage Foundation, which has warned of the risks of mail voting, found 14 cases of attempted mail fraud out of roughly 15.5 million ballots cast in Oregon since that state started conducting elections by mail in 1998.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-vote-by-mail-explainer-idUSKBN2482SA
Note: ATTEMPTED. 14 attempts, since 1998. That means the fraudulent ballots were cast but not counted. So the system already in place works. No new laws are needed. The push for new restrictions is sheer hysteria, not based on any real threat to the election system.
A Washington Post article claims the overall fraud rate for mail in ballots is 0.0025%. Just google it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/
3 edits
@earl-of-trumps saidYa gets wot ya pays for. The same statistic must be available somewhere else.
@moonbus, how'd you get the Reuters article? They have gone behind a paywall now 😞
Here's a link to a similar report:
https://theconversation.com/mail-in-voting-lessons-from-oregon-the-state-with-the-longest-history-of-voting-by-mail-145155
"Others have falsely claimed there is more fraud with mail-in voting [than in-person voting]. Oregon has mailed out millions of ballots over the past three decades, with about a dozen cases of actual fraud. Most problems were unintentional errors involving signing the wrong mailing envelope or assuming that a voter could sign the mailing envelope for a family member."
EDIT:
If one examines the actual practical nuts and bolts of tipping an election through injecting fraudulent mail-in ballots, the idea that the 2020 election was stolen loses all credibility.
First of all, each county prints up its own mail-in ballots: they have different formats, use different papers, different sizes, different templates, different fonts, different envelopes. There are literally thousands of counties across the nation. So, anyone who attempts to tip an election by injecting faked mail-in ballots would have to have access to thousands of templates and print them up in advance. Moreover, because most such ballots contain not only candidates for federal elections, but also state and local ones, anyone attempting to tip a federal election will necessarily also influence state and local elections as well. No such fraud has been detected; indeed, in many counties, Trump was dis-elected but state and local Republicans won.
Second, even assuming someone did get ahold of enough templates from enough counties to print up fakes, how is he going to inject them into the election system without triggering multiple alarms? Either a) the fakes will turn up in the counting centres along with the genuine ones, and there will be duplicates (duplicated signatures) and way too many votes for the number of registered voters, OR b) whoever injected the fakes into the system must cause the genuine ones to disappear (to avoid duplicates). HOW disappear?? Steal them from the post office??? Without anyone noticing? Get real!
Third, even supposing someone had gotten ahold of enough templates and gotten faked ballots into the system, how does he know which genuine ones to eliminate in order to avoid duplicate? I.e., only the ones who genuinely voted for the 'wrong' candidate are to be removed and the faked ones for the 'right' candidate are to be substituted ... but you don't know that by looking at the outside of the envelope. DUH!
Fourth, mail-in ballots must be signed. How is this supposed election tipper going to get credible signatures on enough faked ballots to pass muster? He would need an army of signature forgers working day and night. The signatures have to look good enough to pass muster. (The people who check the signatures are not the people who tally the votes, BTW.) Now, have you ever really tried to forge someone else's signature? Have you ever tried to forge twenty or thirty? How about 7 million?? Get real. Where'd the supposed election tipper get ahold of the documentation to see what the genuine signatures should look like, in thousands of counties across the nation, without anyone noticing there was a major data breach of the voter registers? Get real.
Widespread mail-in ballot fraud is simply not plausible. Moreover, the states' stats demonstrate that the system is very secure and robust. 14 cases in Oregon, over 30 years. That's not enough to tip an election for the local dog catcher. The Donald lies when he says mail-in ballots are vulnerable to massive fraud; they aren't. It simply isn't plausible, when you look at what would be required on a practical level.
1 edit
@sonhouse saidThe Republicans are correct to make these attempts, and other people are correct to oppose these attempts, through legal means, PR campaigns, whatever. That's part of our system.
With the HUNDREDS of voter suppression laws going on all around the country and it is clear the voting rights bills in congress are a non starter so repubs win. End of the US as a democracy.
Choke on your pyrrhic victory all you repub traitors to democracy.
There might be unintended consequences to these new laws if they pass: e.g., businesses or highly skilled workers leaving or avoiding certain states.
Also, if all these measures pass, and Democrats still win elections, Republicans will have an even more difficult time making valid cases that election fraud was involved (of course they will continue to squawk their lies as they do -- too bad we don't have a respectable conservative party in this country at the moment).
As for having a valid photo ID, maybe I could give a few people a pass depending on their circumstances, but if someone is so lazy, ignorant, unmotivated, and/or unsuccessful in life that they can't manage to get their documents in order and maintain a valid photo ID, I don't think we should be helping them to vote.
I don't mean we should deny them the vote, but we should expect them to take care of their own responsibilities if they want to participate in our democracy.
I wonder how many people who otherwise wouldn't even bother to vote are being "helped" to vote by this or that party.
@Kevin-Eleven - said
"I wonder how many people who otherwise wouldn't even bother to vote are being "helped" to vote by this or that party."
Uh huh.
I can tell you in my state, big-wig Dems are going to the low income (welfare) developments to urge people to vote.