Originally posted by SMSBear716Don't want to broaden the scope of the discussion by disputing your interpretation of history (which is rather simplistic, in my view; just think about the appalling coverage of the South Ossetian conflict in the Western media and consider that history may've been presented similarly). But, it may not be a wise policy to choose your allies based on the short term necessity and then stab them in the back at the first opportunity.
Uncle Joe Stalin killed more Jews and innocents than Hitler. Then he replaced Nazi domination of Eastern Europe with Soviet Communist domination of Eastern Europe for 50 years.
So don't give us that innocent , wounded look
As far as Russia being our allies in WWII, it was more of a case of ... the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Winston didn't trust the Russians and as history bore out, his fears were justified..
Originally posted by SeitseThat's not what Russia asked for - that's what the South Ossetians are asking for - they are really asking for Russian protection for years. In fact, Russia, for years, kept from recognising the South Ossetia, believing that national integrity takes precedence over the separatism. But it may change now after Kosovo and this brutal attack.
How convenient. Just like the U.S. did with Texas!
A plastic "independence" just to absorb it into the empire after a few months.
Originally posted by infomastCrap, that is the typical card played by the 'moderates' within expansionist, militaristic and oppressive regimes.
That's not what Russia asked for - that's what the South Ossetians are asking for - they are really asking for Russian protection for years. In fact, Russia, for years, kept from recognising the South Ossetia, believing that national integrity takes precedence over the separatism. But it may change now after Kosovo and this brutal attack.
Playing the "oops" card and pretend Russia has nothing to do with the unrest is naïve, to say the least. The Kremlin has been for long on "on" mode to reassert Russian power. Submarines in the North Pole, jets invading air space of neighbors, etc.
The 50s and 60s is repeating again, with Russia trying to sell the b.s. you are waving, while with the left hand it channels resources to the pro-Russians and has the tanks ready to roll when they are "asked". B.S.!
Just ask the Hungarians, Czechs and Baltic people if they swallow your arguments. Fact: Your country is a threat for all of us. How come everybody is so desperate to join Nato? For the love of Americans? Ha! It's fear of the Russians.
Originally posted by Hells Caretaker"by accident"? You silly boy! They're so much better than the US military. Ahhahahahahahah!
I've just been watching Russia today on Sky Digital there are some pretty brutal images of the battle.Also it appears that Russian jets have bombed a civilian block of flats by accident in a town/city called gorgi.
GRANNY.
According to what I've read at another site, the Russians started this mess by allowing a 1000-strong convoy of North Ossetian paramilitaries from the Russian side into South Ossetia. I've asked for a link to support this claim, but it sounds about right to me.
infomast,
I was just supporting the claim that if the US wanted to continue the war against the Soviets, protecting Eastern Europe, it would have most likely been successful.
Sure the Soviets were strong at the end of WWII, but they didn't have to fight a two front war. Unlike other allies during WWII, Russia would not declare war on Japan to open up a second front. We had to bear the brunt of the Pacific War and those forces could have been brought to bear on the Russian eastern front.
Soviets savagely abused the citizens of the countries they controlled. The people of Finland have no love of Russia. As a matter of fact, they actually give Hitler a break since he was willing to protect them from the Soviets.
If you aren't willing to look at the mass murders that Stalin carried out in his consolidation of power, then there really is no room for discussion. You'll just espouse your propaganda and I'll just espouse mine.
Originally posted by infomastDo the words MALOR OIL PIPE LINE running through S. Ossetis mean anything? How dare they!
That's not what Russia asked for - that's what the South Ossetians are asking for - they are really asking for Russian protection for years. In fact, Russia, for years, kept from recognising the South Ossetia, believing that national integrity takes precedence over the separatism. But it may change now after Kosovo and this brutal attack.
GRANNY.
Originally posted by lordhighgusI say the US should side with Russia on this war. Maybe we'll win one for a change. You're on you own Europe!
Read an interesting article in todays paper along the lines of this war in Georgia has as many implications for global politics as the the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo in 1914.
I hope WW3 doesnt break out, but all the pieces are in place for it to do so.
GRANNY.
Originally posted by EladarI already posted my version of events and can only add that Russia is asking for Saakashvili (Georgian president) to be declared war criminal and tried in Hague. In my opinion this version is irrefutable no matter the lies that are added afterwards - the history is unchangeable. Also, can't argue based on what "sounds about right to you".
According to what I've read at another site, the Russians started this mess by allowing a 1000-strong convoy of North Ossetian paramilitaries from the Russian side into South Ossetia. I've asked for a link to support this claim, but it sounds about right to me.
infomast,
I was just supporting the claim that if the US wanted to continue the war against ...[text shortened]... s no room for discussion. You'll just espouse your propaganda and I'll just espouse mine.
Stalin was a mass murderer primarily of his own people, and I agree with that. But, it doesn't mean that all the world's evils of the period can be attributed to him, nor does it relate to this war.
The brunt of the Pacific war can't be remotely compared to the war in Europe which USSR bore for years. Also, Russia was at war with Japan and contributed substantially in 1945 (and was asked to do that by the US). As far as trying to defeat USSR by arming the Germans, dropping atomic bombs, or other means - not only would it've been immoral, but could've led to completely unpredictable results including total world chaos. Would you be willing to risk tens of millions of deaths and destruction of world powers to achieve your aims? Better to leave this question to unsatisfied military historians.
Originally posted by SeitseArguments shouldn't be swallowed, they should be refuted if one can do it. "Submarines in the North Pole, jets invading air space of neighbors, etc." certainly have nothing to do with the topic but if you insist. Expedition to the North Pole was a scientific one and Russia said that its claims on some underwater resources will not be unilateral but will be based on internationally recognized principles. Don't know whose jets invaded what and where but definitely there isn't and wasn't systematical violation of any Russia's neighbors space.
Crap, that is the typical card played by the 'moderates' within expansionist, militaristic and oppressive regimes.
Playing the "oops" card and pretend Russia has nothing to do with the unrest is [b]naïve, to say the least. The Kremlin has been for long on "on" mode to reassert Russian power. Submarines in the North Pole, jets invading air space of neig ...[text shortened]... is so desperate to join Nato? For the love of Americans? Ha! It's fear of the Russians.[/b]
I already posted my version of events and can only add that Russia is asking for Saakashvili (Georgian president) to be declared war criminal and tried in Hague. In my opinion this version is irrefutable no matter the lies that are added afterwards - the history is unchangeable.
Were you there to see if the convoy from the north actually occured? If not, then how do you know it is a lie?
In any case, I'm still waiting for the link. I trust the person who posted it, but still I'd like to see the link too.
The brunt of the Pacific war can't be remotely compared to the war in Europe which USSR bore for years.
This is true, but I find it strange that an ally would not help. Soviets saw the US as an ally of conveniece against Hitler.
Russia was at war with Japan and contributed substantially in 1945 (and was asked to do that by the US).
That's a joke. The Russians "declared war" on Japan so that they could claim Japanese territories after doing nothing to defeat them. Perhaps if the US had not dropped the atomic bombs and the Japanese did not surrender, the Russians may have actually contributed to Japan's defeat.
As far as trying to defeat USSR by arming the Germans, dropping atomic bombs, or other means - not only would it've been immoral, but could've led to completely unpredictable results including total world chaos.
The US would not have had to arm the Germans to defeat the Soviets. The only predictable result of defeating the Soviets would have been to prevent what Eastern Europe had to suffer under before the collapse of the USSR.
There would have been no world turmoil. In fact, the world would have been a much better place had Stalin been defeated. The peace brought about by total subjegation and the iron rule of a dictator is no exchange for lack of turmoil.
Originally posted by EladarReally want to avoid long answers, but...
[b]I already posted my version of events and can only add that Russia is asking for Saakashvili (Georgian president) to be declared war criminal and tried in Hague. In my opinion this version is irrefutable no matter the lies that are added afterwards - the history is unchangeable.
Were you there to see if the convoy from the north actually occured? ...[text shortened]... y total subjegation and the iron rule of a dictator is no exchange for lack of turmoil.[/b]
What possible link could you be waiting for? Did Ossetians suddenly decided to provoke the Georgians for some suicidal reasons? I mean Ossetia is much smaller than Georgia, why would they want the destruction of their own capital and surroundings. And the fact that the Georgians were in or near the Ossetian capital in the matter of hours does it tell you anything? Russia waited for a day before intervening and only when it became apparent of the Georgian intentions to crush Ossetian independence completely and bring them under control. Actually, the Ossetians asked why Russia waited for so long.
If you think it's strange that an ally wouldn't help then ask why the Second front in Europe was only opened in 1944 (although promised for 1942).
Roosevelt (or Truman) repeatedly asked Stalin for military intervention against Japan in one of the conferences (Yalta or Potsdam) when it became apparent that Germany will soon be defeated. The Soviets did crush a sizable Japanese army. These are the facts and you can look them up.
Roosevelt (or Truman) repeatedly asked Stalin for military intervention against Japan in one of the conferences (Yalta or Potsdam) when it became apparent that Germany will soon be defeated. The Soviets did crush a sizable Japanese army. These are the facts and you can look them up.
It was really stupid of the President (whichever it was) to do so. Anything the Soviets did was absolutely meaningless in the outcome of the war, but it did give them a say in the region after we defeated the Japanese.
If you think it's strange that an ally wouldn't help then ask why the Second front in Europe was only opened in 1944 (although promised for 1942).
We were fighting the Nazis in Northern Africa and Italy, as well as keeping forces on the Atlantic Coast due to the inevitable invasion.
What possible link could you be waiting for? Did Ossetians suddenly decided to provoke the Georgians for some suicidal reasons?
Not if Russia was at their back promising to step in once hostilities begin.
Originally posted by EladarThe Georgians started the war....what planet do you currently reside ?
[b]Roosevelt (or Truman) repeatedly asked Stalin for military intervention against Japan in one of the conferences (Yalta or Potsdam) when it became apparent that Germany will soon be defeated. The Soviets did crush a sizable Japanese army. These are the facts and you can look them up.
It was really stupid of the President (whichever it was) to do so ...[text shortened]... reasons? [/b]
Not if Russia was at their back promising to step in once hostilities begin.[/b]
Originally posted by huckleberryhoundThey attacked rebels in their own country and suddenly Russia invades. You may not agree with what the Georgians did, but to think the Russian invasion is justified is a whole other matter.
The Georgians started the war....what planet do you currently reside ?