greater isreal

@sameeh said
So you mean to say just because the jews started migrating into the land (aided by then imperialist powers) they automatically get the rights to carve out a nation? By the same logic, would the Syrians fleeing ISIS going into Europe be able to claim a country of their own, once their population reaches substantial levels?

And as to your reasoning on why the Palestinians do ...[text shortened]... g power. Do you then suggest none of those Asian/African countries are eligible to rule themselves??

Let me rewrite what you wrote so that I will be clear. You still dont get what happened in Palestine.
** By the same logic, the Syrians fleeing ISIS going into Europe be able to claim a country of their own, in a plot of land approved by the owners, if have the ability to run a country. **
Your mistakes are
- refusal to accept that the land of Palestine was owned, controlled and governed by the British Empire.
- the Jews had previously lived in Palestine so they had some important history there.

Palestine was a colony of the Ottoman Empire, who were the owners of the region.
It then became a colony of the British Empire. It is not the homeland of the Arabs.

Here is a little fact for you ... The Arab Muslims are a greedy murderous bunch of people. They live off conquest and killing of non-Muslims. All the huge expanse of land around Israel were owned and controlled by them thoughout the centuries. During this time they persecuted Jews, burned down their synagogues, destroyed their holy books and killed them whenever they can. The Jews had no safe place to live, and the British agreed that Palestine would be given to them as a homeland. Yet with all the millions of sq km of land around Israel, the Arabs still want Israel to move and Israel must not have a homeland [according to you].

Thank God for the British. The Jews have prospered over the years and are now a world power.

I have no interest in commenting about Africa.

@Rajk999 said
Let me rewrite what you wrote so that I will be clear. You still dont get what happened in Palestine.
** By the same logic, the Syrians fleeing ISIS going into Europe be able to claim a country of their own, in a plot of land approved by the owners, if have the ability to run a country. **
Your mistakes are
- refusal to accept that the land of Palestine was owned, contr ...[text shortened]... rospered over the years and are now a world power.

I have no interest in commenting about Africa.

"Your mistakes are
- refusal to accept that the land of Palestine was owned, controlled and governed by the British Empire.
- the Jews had previously lived in Palestine so they had some important history there."

This isn't a real estate deal. British "owning" the land of Palestine is a travesty of civilized behavior. Any idea born out of such an imperialistic thought ceases to have legitimacy on any moral compass. Period.
As for the jews who had previously lived in Palestine (before Zionists started blowing their trumpet) - they very well deserve to continue to live there. They have as much a right to Palestine as much as the Palestinians have. Unlike the Zionists who invaded and colonised the land.

"It then became a colony of the British Empire. It is not the homeland of the Arabs."
Neither the Ottomans, nor the British should have any rights over Palestine. It should go to the indigenous people who lived there for several generations, and not to the imperialist rulers who exploited them.

As for the rest of your diatribe about Arab incompetence - i am not going to honour such a racist stream of thought with a response, other than requesting you to read up on what the early Islamic civilisation has achieved.

@sameeh said
"Your mistakes are
- refusal to accept that the land of Palestine was owned, controlled and governed by the British Empire.
- the Jews had previously lived in Palestine so they had some important history there."

This isn't a real estate deal. British "owning" the land of Palestine is a travesty of civilized behavior. Any idea born out of such an imperialistic thought c ...[text shortened]... eople who lived there for several generations, and not to the imperialist rulers who exploited them.

What you are guilty of, is a genetic defect called 'Presentism'. I will post what Google says about it .. PRESENTISM - uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts. Basically what you are going is using your present day moral standards, interpreting past events in the light of this and condeming people 100 years ago. Lots of people suffer from this defect but it is a stupid thing to do.

Colonialism was the norm when the British beat Ottoman Empire in 1915 and took their lands. That is how things were. In those times there was still some kind of slavery. There was child labour, and a whole bunch of other lifestyles that would be unacceptable today. It does not make it wrong. Life was different in those times. So your condemnation of what the British did and your analysis of what was right and who was wrong is noted, but still irrelevant and its a done deal. Now the Jews own Palestine, and there is no going back.

@sameeh said
"Your mistakes are

As for the rest of your diatribe about Arab incompetence - i am not going to honour such a racist stream of thought with a response, other than requesting you to read up on what the early Islamic civilisation has achieved.

Arab Palestinians are the ones I condemned for being stupid. I listed the reasons. If you want to post a rebuttal then feel free. I notice you just call it racism but its the truth. Your labelling and name calling is proof that Im right, and you are in denial.

Arab Muslims have a different issue. Many are competent and pretty normal, except for the extremists ones who lean toward Sharia Law. These are the killers and the rapists. I dont need to see what they have acomplished in the early days. Im seeing now in these times they are killing Christians, starving Sudanese women and children, raping Yazidi girls in Syria, and abusing people in their countries all over the world. Islam is sick and if you are one, and adult one with a mind of your own and you still adhere to Islam then you are equally sick.

@Rajk999 said
Your analogy does not apply. Palestinian Arabs have no legal right to govern the region. The governing authority was the British Empire from 1915 to 1948. Many individuals from various nations had title deeds to parcels of land in Palestine. That however does not confer on them the right to own or govern the entire region.

Palestinian Arabs are a failed people. Since 1 ...[text shortened]... Jews.

If you dont think that is failure on their part then something is wrong with your thinking.

You are just stating that the Palestinian Arabs have been denied local autonomy for a very long time now - how is this an advancement of your position? You are just highlighting the ongoing injustice, IMO.

@Rajk999 said
Palestinian Arabs are a failed people. Since 1948, some 78 years have passed and they have failed to develop and set up a viable state. All they have done is take grants, aid and other forms of assistance totalling many billions of $$$, and have not progressed. Most of their resources are used to kill Jews.

It would not even matter if they are failing to develop adequately. That is the story of many peoples throughout the world, and nobody uses this as a basis to give their land to someone else.

If I were to say that the Jews are a failed people - they had their land taken away from them before becaus they were not mighty enough to keep it, and that we should pull the rug out from under them again because the genocide they are committign while claiming to be stewards of the Holy Land is reprehensible and clearly demonstrates that they are a failed people, what would you argue?

The Palestinians are doing harm to themselves by not developing, but at least they are not committing genocide on their neighbors, innit?

@Rajk999 said
What you are guilty of, is a genetic defect called 'Presentism'. I will post what Google says about it .. PRESENTISM - uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts. Basically what you are going is using your present day moral standards, interpreting past events in the ...[text shortened]... but still irrelevant and its a done deal. Now the Jews own Palestine, and there is no going back.

So the British did own large parts of the world for over 200 years. Did that entitle them to continue the ownership forever, or did the world come to the realization colonialism is wrong, and corrected the ownerships?
So then why would not a decision, even if incorrect only by today's standards, not be corrected now?
Pretending its a "Done deal" is nothing but an excuse. Can you at least acknowledge that by today's standards, the partition of 1948 was unjust and illogical? I didn't hear you acknowledge that bare minimum yet.

@Rajk999 said
Arab Palestinians are the ones I condemned for being stupid. I listed the reasons. If you want to post a rebuttal then feel free. I notice you just call it racism but its the truth. Your labelling and name calling is proof that Im right, and you are in denial.

Arab Muslims have a different issue. Many are competent and pretty normal, except for the extremists ones who ...[text shortened]... one, and adult one with a mind of your own and you still adhere to Islam then you are equally sick.

"Arab Palestinians are the ones I condemned for being stupid"

Actually not true. Here is what you said earlier:
"Here is a little fact for you ... The Arab Muslims are a greedy murderous bunch of people. They live off conquest and killing of non-Muslims"

Now if you are pretending that was about Arab muslims, then look at your lines that followed:
"All the huge expanse of land around Israel were owned and controlled by them thoughout the centuries. During this time they persecuted Jews"

In the same breath, you say the Arabs "owned and controlled " the land to persecute the jews, and then state they "never owned the land before" hence have no moral right to ask for a nation themselves.
I think you need to make up your own mind first 🙂

@Philokalia said
You are just stating that the Palestinian Arabs have been denied local autonomy for a very long time now - how is this an advancement of your position? You are just highlighting the ongoing injustice, IMO.

I said they were offered a separate state in 1947 and they refused. Why are you ignoring that.

@Philokalia said
It would not even matter if they are failing to develop adequately. That is the story of many peoples throughout the world, and nobody uses this as a basis to give their land to someone else.

If I were to say that the Jews are a failed people - they had their land taken away from them before becaus they were not mighty enough to keep it, and that we should pull ...[text shortened]... emselves by not developing, but at least they are not committing genocide on their neighbors, innit?

You are really a confused individual, and you dont seem to be able to put things in order. They reason why they lost the land has nothing to do with their failure as a people.

Here is how it went down..
- The British Empire took over from the Ottoman
- The British divided the land between two warring parties
- The Jews accepted the partition and the Arabs did not
- The Jews developed, prospered and suceeded
- The Arabs made war and subsquently lost land to the Jews

Hope you got that.

@sameeh said
So the British did own large parts of the world for over 200 years. Did that entitle them to continue the ownership forever, or did the world come to the realization colonialism is wrong, and corrected the ownerships?
So then why would not a decision, even if incorrect only by today's standards, not be corrected now?
Pretending its a "Done deal" is nothing but an excuse. ...[text shortened]... the partition of 1948 was unjust and illogical? I didn't hear you acknowledge that bare minimum yet.

We went through all that and answeed all those questions. Is the topic getting too detailed for you?

We already established that in 1960 the UN, which means the world really, agreed to self-determination for all people. At around this time the British Empire allowed all colonies to become independent states if that is what they desired. There is no indication that I believe the British should be allowed to continue ownerhsip forever. Where did you get that?

Next this idea people have of correcting anything that happened decades or hundreds of years ago, like returning land that has already been developed into a strong viable nation, is nonsensical. It is as foolish as descendants of African slaves calling for reparations. Its a ridiculous idea and one not well thought out. Certainly there are some things that can be reversed, but in the Palestine situation, returning land is not one.

The partition of 1948 was not unjust, neither illogical. The British and the UN partitioned pretty fairly. The Jews got the greater % but much of their portion was the Negev Desert which nobody wanted. If the Palestinian Arabs were a peaceful and progressive bunch that land of Palestine would have been prosperous and booming. But because of their STUPID religion Islam, they are taught to hate, kill, rape and destroy. The British made the right decision.

@sameeh said
"Arab Palestinians are the ones I condemned for being stupid"

Actually not true. Here is what you said earlier:
"Here is a little fact for you ... The Arab Muslims are a greedy murderous bunch of people. They live off conquest and killing of non-Muslims"

Now if you are pretending that was about Arab muslims, then look at your lines that followed:
"All the huge expanse ...[text shortened]... no moral right to ask for a nation themselves.
I think you need to make up your own mind first 🙂

All this toing and froing is getting confusing. Here is my position on this:

Arab Palestinians are the evil ones. These are the ones who support Hamas and support the killing Jews. They dance in the street and celebrate when Jews are raped and killed. They are murderous bastards and I have no pity for any of them, They are reaping what they sow.

Arab Muslims like I already said, are mostly decent people but sprinkled among them are the extremists who can turn on a dime, and destroy the society in which they live by leaning to Sharia Law.

@Rajk999 said
We went through all that and answeed all those questions. Is the topic getting too detailed for you?

We already established that in 1960 the UN, which means the world really, agreed to self-determination for all people. At around this time the British Empire allowed all colonies to become independent states if that is what they desired. There is no indication that I beli ...[text shortened]... ligion Islam, they are taught to hate, kill, rape and destroy. The British made the right decision.

"We already established that in 1960 the UN, which means the world really, agreed to self-determination for all people"

If you seriously believe this, then why do you think the Palestinians who lived in the land do not have the right to form a nation by themselves? Who are the British and the UN to divide land which is not theirs, especially when the local population never agreed to it? How is that just???

Answer this question, and the rest will fall in line. 🙂

@sameeh said
"We already established that in 1960 the UN, which means the world really, agreed to self-determination for all people"

If you seriously believe this, then why do you think the Palestinians who lived in the land do not have the right to form a nation by themselves? Who are the British and the UN to divide land which is not theirs, especially when the local population never agreed to it? How is that just???

Answer this question, and the rest will fall in line. 🙂

Like I said. .. you are suffering from Presentism. See my earlier post. It appears that you are unable to distinguish between moral standards now vs the past. So we have two situations:
1. UN deciding on self-determination in 1960 and all countries were in agreement that people should have the right to set up, run and manage their own country, without a colonial power. This cannot be done retrospectively. It was from that time on the British would step back and allow colonial subjects to manage their affairs.

2. Times prior to that when there was colonialism. Eg in 1915 the British Empire took the lands belonging to the Ottoman Empire. That was fine and nobody complained. They agreed that Palestine would be the homeland for the Jews in 1917 in the Balfour Declaration. That was fine then and the League of Nations agreed. In 1948 the UN agreed on the Partition Plan. The world agreed.

Arabs who lived on the land did not hold controlling power, neither did the Jews. The British Empire was in control.

The Arabs were stupid. They should have taken their portion and built good relations with the Jews. Instead they made war... Big mistake. Do you think they will learn? I doubt it.

@Rajk999 said
I said they were offered a separate state in 1947 and they refused. Why are you ignoring that.

They refused the deal because it would relinquish their claim as the rightful owners of all the land, though, right.

You certainly see how that is a very significant way to disagree with it.

If a thief steals $5 million from you, but offers you back $2 million to get you to accept the arrangement that he keeps $3 million...

WOuldn't that be foolish to accept?