@sameeh said1. I think I clarified what I meant by a 'homeland' - a place owned, governed or controlled, by a particular group. The Arabs do not qualify, and they never owned or controlled or governed Palestine. At one time the Jews were a nation in Palestine ie they owned, governed and controlled that portion of land. Since then there never was a nation called Palestine,. It was always a region controlled and governed by some other Empire. The British Empire were the last owners of that region. Arabs were always a subservient people, they were controlled, they were second class in that land of Palestine, as they were governed by some superior power. That is why it is not their homeland.
"1. Palestine is not the homeland of the Arabs."
Palestinians are more the original inhabitants of the land,than they are arabs. Please check your facts :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians
says this :
More recent studies since 2017 have found that Palestinians – as well as other Levantine people – are primarily descended from ancient Levantines who i ...[text shortened]... pic, otherwise you come across like a social media junkie."
I rather agree with you on this one ;-)
2. The British were within their right to partition the land, and the UN agreed. Colonial rule was the norm in those days. It is fine to say those rules do not apply today, but to retrospectively claim that the British were wrong is nonsense. The British decision and the Balfour Declaration was binding. Whoever disagrees can fight for it and the Arabs did and they lost. They fought again and again and again and lost over and over and over.
3. The Jews were classified as 'Dhimmis' aka 'second class citizen', and had to pay non-Muslim tax 'jizya', under the Ottoman Empire, which was an Islamic State. If you think Jews were happy being second class citizens and paying some stupid tax for not being a Muslim you are mistaken and delusional.
@shavixmir, I can assume that you mean that hamas also killed civilians, on
Oct 7th , and as they started it, got no excuse.
I also think its time for moderate Muslims to distance themselves from the Muslim terrorist clans, worldwide, so alleviate this kind of stalemate.
@Rajk999 saidThe summary of what you wrote is below:
1. I think I clarified what I meant by a 'homeland' - a place owned, governed or controlled, by a particular group. The Arabs do not qualify, and they never owned or controlled or governed Palestine. At one time the Jews were a nation in Palestine ie they owned, governed and controlled that portion of land. Since then there never was a nation called Palestine,. It was alwa ...[text shortened]... nd class citizens and paying some stupid tax for not being a Muslim you are mistaken and delusional.
1. The Palestinians have always been subservient, hence do not deserve to rule their own homeland.
2. The jews were driven out of that same land centuries ago by the romans, and consequently have NEVER ruled any land and were subservient to pretty much whoever was ruling wherever they lived but they still deserve to rule an independent nation .
If you don't see the double standards in what you argued above, then I rest my case :-D
And about the British having a right to partition something which isnt theirs - if you think colonialism and imperialism is the way to govern the world in the 21st century, well sorry to disappoint you my friend, but civilised people think otherwise. Which is why the UN was supposed to exist (otherwise nations could have just enforced their jungle rule through war alone).
Its funny to see the inherent contradictions in your arguments though - saying Palestinians dont deserve a govt just because they were subservient historically, but Jews deserving a nation preceisely because of the same reason. Or that of Britain's might is right argument, but at the same time blaming the Palestinians for not agreeing to a UN agreement. Lol
@sameeh saidMaybe I should rephrase because you are missing the points I made.
The summary of what you wrote is below:
1. The Palestinians have always been subservient, hence do not deserve to rule their own homeland.
2. The jews were driven out of that same land centuries ago by the romans, and consequently have NEVER ruled any land and were subservient to pretty much whoever was ruling wherever they lived but they still deserve to rule an independen ...[text shortened]... ight argument, but at the same time blaming the Palestinians for not agreeing to a UN agreement. Lol
1. It is because you wrongly claimed that Palestine belonged to the indigenous Arabs because of the length of time they lived there, that I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine. Other Empires did, and even the Jews did as well. Never was there a Palestinian State.
I actually think that the Arabs deserve a separate state away from the Jews, because they cannot co-exist in the same country in peace. However a 2-state solution was tried since 1948 and it failed once too many times so this is now the end of the line for Arabs, as I dont think they will ever see Palestine divided into two again..
As for ruling and governing themselves, I might be wrong but I dont think they are able to so that successfully. They are a failed people, and need supervision.
2. Regarding the British Empire. Now in these times there is no colonialism, as least not openly. Back in 1915 colonial rule still existed, and Europeans were still all over the world capturing terroritoes and planting their flags on it. I live in one and I know first hand about colonial rule. It was only recently in 1960 that the UN passed Resolution 1514 declaring that colonialism must end and indigenous people be giving the right to self-determination.
The point I made was that it is foolish to take current moral standards and retroactively apply it to a situation many decades or centuries ago. Long ago colonialism was normal, and at the time of the Balfour Declaration 1917, it was the right of the British Empire to decide the fate of Palestine.
Who disagreed let them fight. They did. They lost. Life goes on.
@Rajk999 said
Maybe I should rephrase because you are missing the points I made.
1. It is because you wrongly claimed that Palestine belonged to the indigenous Arabs because of the length of time they lived there, that I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine. Other Empires did, and even the Jews did as well. Never was there a P ...[text shortened]... decide the fate of Palestine.
Who disagreed let them fight. They did. They lost. Life goes on.
I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine.
That is false. The Rashidun Caliphate were Arabs who governed, controlled and ruled over Palestine.
@AThousandYoung saidI meant Palestinian Arabs. From the context and discussion you should have figured out that.I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine.
That is false. The Rashidun Caliphate were Arabs who governed, controlled and ruled over Palestine.
@Rajk999 saidActually, what you are presenting is basically a fallacy: the Jews are right because they are mighty and can control the land by leveraging international support and finances. Right exists independent of physical might - if a man showed up and beat you down and stole your car, you'd want him in jail. You would not respect the fact that he is mighty, you would ask that people respect the fact that you have legal ownership over your car, and that the concept of legal ownership over property is an advancement above that of prehistoric anarchy...
Really do not know why you keep repeating the same cliched line 'might makes right'. That is a sign of a failed argument.
You can champion whatever you like but the Arabs living in Palestine have no just cause, and what they are now experiencing is the end result of 75 years of stupidity and poor decisions on their part. They are a failed people. They were given a reas ...[text shortened]... about to be scattered all over the Mid East, while those who chose to stay will live under the Jews.
The fact that you then just go on to label the Palestinians a failed people who do not have a right to what they possess just further backs up the fact that you are not arguing logically, but rather, just appealing to strength.
OR do you want to give us an argument that migth makes right because the Palestinians are genetically & culturally a lower people than Jews?
We are awfully close to you making that argument as is.
@pawnpaw saidThe 7th of October was, indeed, horrendous.
@shavixmir, I can assume that you mean that hamas also killed civilians, on
Oct 7th , and as they started it, got no excuse.
I also think its time for moderate Muslims to distance themselves from the Muslim terrorist clans, worldwide, so alleviate this kind of stalemate.
Although, truth be told, that was not the start of anything. It was, as is most things in Israel/ Palestine, a reaction to ongoing aggressions.
And much as Palestinians should distance themselves from Hamas, so should the Jews distance themselves from Netenyahoo’s ethnic cleansing and his parliaments behaviours and wishes towards the Palestinian territories in general.
@Rajk999 said"that I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine..."
Maybe I should rephrase because you are missing the points I made.
1. It is because you wrongly claimed that Palestine belonged to the indigenous Arabs because of the length of time they lived there, that I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine. Other Empires did, and even the Jews did as well. Never was there a P ...[text shortened]... decide the fate of Palestine.
Who disagreed let them fight. They did. They lost. Life goes on.
That's lame - if a popluation never had independence in the past, they never deserve it in the future as well?? Jews did not have an independent state for the last 2 millenia, but they "Deserve" one now? Do you not see the contradiction in your own statements? If you dont, then add the below line of what you said - I actually think that the Arabs deserve a separate state away from the Jews.
I think you need to make up your mind if Palestinians deserve a state of their own, or not. :-)
And btw, i did not "wrongly claim" Palestine belonged to the Arabs. I said it belongs to Palestinians. There is a difference.
"They are a failed people, and need supervision."
This is crass racism at its peak. No people in the word are incapable of ruling themselves. You just have to get out of the way.
"The point I made was that it is foolish to take current moral standards and retroactively apply it to a situation many decades or centuries ago."
1948 is not too long ago. It was a time when anti colonial movements had already started succeeding in sending back the colonial powers home. World opinion was already leaning heavily towards independence for all erstwhile colonies. Even if you judge British actions against the prevailing standard at that time, the partition of Palestine without acceptance of Palestinians themselves is absurd. Period.
"Who disagreed let them fight. They did. They lost. Life goes on."
I am sure you wouldnt apply this rule to the innocent Jewish lives lost on October 2023. I wouldn't. Just be civil enough to apply the same logic to the other side as well.
@Philokalia saidYour analogy does not apply. Palestinian Arabs have no legal right to govern the region. The governing authority was the British Empire from 1915 to 1948. Many individuals from various nations had title deeds to parcels of land in Palestine. That however does not confer on them the right to own or govern the entire region.
Actually, what you are presenting is basically a fallacy: the Jews are right because they are mighty and can control the land by leveraging international support and finances. Right exists independent of physical might - if a man showed up and beat you down and stole your car, you'd want him in jail. You would not respect the fact that he is mighty, you would ...[text shortened]... culturally a lower people than Jews?[/i]
We are awfully close to you making that argument as is.
Palestinian Arabs are a failed people. Since 1948, some 78 years have passed and they have failed to develop and set up a viable state. All they have done is take grants, aid and other forms of assistance totalling many billions of $$$, and have not progressed. Most of their resources are used to kill Jews.
If you dont think that is failure on their part then something is wrong with your thinking.
@sameeh saidYou keep twisting what I say and claiming that I am contradicting myself. I deal with facts not emotion and drama.
"that I countered that with the fact that the Arabs never governed, controlled or ruled over Palestine..."
That's lame - if a popluation never had independence in the past, they never deserve it in the future as well?? Jews did not have an independent state for the last 2 millenia, but they "Deserve" one now? Do you not see the contradiction in your own statements? If you don ...[text shortened]... on October 2023. I wouldn't. Just be civil enough to apply the same logic to the other side as well.
The Palestinian Arabs were given independence the same day with the Jews. The Jewish Independence Day was 14th May 1948. The British partitioned their colony, with the full approval of the UN [that means the rest of the world] and they departed Palestine. The Jews celebrated their Independence Day, while the Arabs conspired with their other foolish Arab buddies, Egyptians, Saudis etc and amassed an army to kill Jews. They started the war and they failed miserably. That has been their story for the last 75 years. More proof that they are failures and stupid ones too. Even the most foolish of animals can recognise defeat and retreat and surrender.
So you are wrong to claim they were never given independence. If you can accept this then we can proceed otherwise I am wasting my time tryiing to explain and correct your fabrications.
What I think you mean is that they were not given was full control of the entire land of Palestine, which clearly you believe they deserve. They do not deserve that. They wanted all and that is the problem. The Jews were happy with their lot while the greedy stupid Arabs wanted to kill Jews. You side with evil. They are an evil bunch and they deserve what they are now getting for all their atrocities.
@Rajk999 said"What I think you mean is that they were not given was full control of the entire land of Palestine, which clearly you believe they deserve. They do not deserve that."
You keep twisting what I say and claiming that I am contradicting myself. I deal with facts not emotion and drama.
The Palestinian Arabs were given independence the same day with the Jews. The Jewish Independence Day was 14th May 1948. The British partitioned their colony, with the full approval of the UN [that means the rest of the world] and they departed Palestine. ...[text shortened]... h evil. They are an evil bunch and they deserve what they are now getting for all their atrocities.
Let's simplify the question a bit. Can you explain why "they did not deserve that", while Jews who had never set foot on this land before 1920s suddenly deserve half of the land?
2 edits
@sameeh saidIm going to repeat this probably for the last time. Lets deal with factual historical information rather than social media drama. If you agree we can continue others it is a waste of time.
"What I think you mean is that they were not given was full control of the entire land of Palestine, which clearly you believe they deserve. They do not deserve that."
Let's simplify the question a bit. Can you explain why "they did not deserve that", while Jews who had never set foot on this land before 1920s suddenly deserve half of the land?
You said that .. .. "Jews who had never set foot on this land before 1920s.." and that is a good example of the rubbish floating around social media. Here is Perplexity with some facts, about the Jewish population in Palestine, from 1890 to 1948 when the land was partitioned. You will no doubt have your own source of information and if what I post is in conflict with your source then please post it for me to have a look ... thanks.
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The Jewish population in Palestine grew significantly from the late 19th century through 1948, as part of successive waves of immigration known as Aliyahs.
Here are key estimates in thousands based on historical data:
- Around 1890: Approximately 17,000 to 20,000 Jews lived in Palestine.
- Early 1900s to 1914 (First and Second Aliyah): Jewish population estimated at about 30,000 to 70,000 by 1914.
- 1922 (British Mandate Census): Approximately 83,790 Jews out of a total population of about 757,000.
- 1931 (British Census): Approximately 174,610 Jews out of a total population of about 1,036,000.
- 1945 Estimates: Around 553,600 Jews out of roughly 1.76 million people.
- 1947 (near independence): About 630,000 Jews out of approximately 2 million inhabitants.
During this period, Jewish immigration came mainly from Eastern Europe, Yemen, and other regions, with large increases especially during the Fifth Aliyah (1929-1939) and the illegal immigration period (Aliyah Bet) during 1933-1948 when British restrictions limited official immigration.
The Jewish population grew from a small minority in the late 1800s to nearly one-third or more of the population by 1947-48, leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel.
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I chose 1890 because that was about the start of the Zionist movement when the Jews bought up property in Palestine.
In addition the British believed that the Jews should have the opportunity to return to Palestine to set up their homeland, especially since Palestine had no other government from 1915 when the Ottoman Empire was defeated. This led to the Balfour Declaration in 1917, declaring that Palestine would be a homeland for the Jews. Arabs in Palestine were not keen on having their own government. From 1915 to 1948, the local Arab population took almost no part in helping and developing and viable government or in building infrastructure like electricty , roads etc. Historical records show that it was the Jews that financed and did much of the development work in Palestine in that period. The Arabs did the opposite and hindered all the work that was being done. This is why I will continue to state the truth ... they are a backward people whose aim is to keep everyone down even their own people.
@Rajk999 saidSo you mean to say just because the jews started migrating into the land (aided by then imperialist powers) they automatically get the rights to carve out a nation? By the same logic, would the Syrians fleeing ISIS going into Europe be able to claim a country of their own, once their population reaches substantial levels?
Im going to repeat this probably for the last time. Lets deal with factual historical information rather than social media drama. If you agree we can continue others it is a waste of time.
You said that .. .. "Jews who had never set foot on this land before 1920s.." and that is a good example of the rubbish floating around social media. Here is Perplexity with s ...[text shortened]... e the truth ... they are a backward people whose aim is to keep everyone down even their own people.
And as to your reasoning on why the Palestinians do not deserve a chance at it - they were rightly fighting the foreigners coming into their homeland, which is why they hindered the work of Jews. How is that ever a reason to take away their homeland, or even a part of it away from them? By the same logic, most independence struggles in the mid-20th century involved some sort of opposition and even burning down of infrastructure buiolt by the colonising power. Do you then suggest none of those Asian/African countries are eligible to rule themselves??