@no1marauder saidNow who’s being emotional and childlike š
You don't arm someone else; you go fight with them unless you're a coward.
But then again these types of simple minded analogies rarely work in the complex world of international politics.
So you think the US should have entered WWII earlier instead of using lend lease to support those being attacked by Hitler in the early years of the war?
No it’s perfectly honourable to support a weaker nation against a stronger nuclear armed one without actually starting WWIII, if that happens it will be Putins criminal enterprise that starts it but the west cannot back down in the face of his blow hard threats and attempted intimidation.
Best case scenario unless Putin seeks an honourable and lasting peace for Ukraine and the wider region is Ukraine becomes a meat grinder of Putins making for the Russian forces.
@kevcvs57 saidLend Lease was a temporary program intended to last only so long as it took the American People to be convinced to join the fight. No one had any delusion that the Axis forces could be defeated merely by the supplying of weapons to their outgunned opponents. That is your pathetic fantasy, not FDR's.
Now who’s being emotional and childlike š
So you think the US should have entered WWII earlier instead of using lend lease to support those being attacked by Hitler in the early years of the war?
No it’s perfectly honourable to support a weaker nation against a stronger nuclear armed one without actually starting WWIII, if that happens it will be Putins criminal enterpris ...[text shortened]... aine and the wider region is Ukraine becomes a meat grinder of Putins making for the Russian forces.
So your "best case" is a prolonged, bloody war meant to hurt Russia. It certainly seems Chomsky described you to a T. Moreover, you seem to be callously unaware that the main sufferers of the war are not Russian soldiers but the People of the Ukraine - tens of thousands have died, more than 10 million have become refugees, many of their cities have been destroyed, their economy is in abject ruins, etc. etc. etc. But you want them to suffer more.
@no1marauder saidYou cannot simply put your own retarded analysis onto a historical fact like lend lease to try and crowbar it into the category of irrelevance.
Lend Lease was a temporary program intended to last only so long as it took the American People to be convinced to join the fight. No one had any delusion that the Axis forces could be defeated merely by the supplying of weapons to their outgunned opponents. That is your pathetic fantasy, not FDR's.
So your "best case" is a prolonged, bloody war meant to hurt Russia. I ...[text shortened]... e been destroyed, their economy is in abject ruins, etc. etc. etc. But you want them to suffer more.
Lend lease is a slam dunk example of a nation supporting other nations at war short of declaring war on one side or the other.
Your pathetically childish response seems to be your stock in trade for this particular thread. It’s obviously in lieu of an actual leg to stand on.
Again your incapable of analysing this war and the wests response to it. Ukraine does not have to defeat Russia it simply has to survive as a sovereign state which will be strategic defeat for Putin.
If this topic is too complex and nuanced for you perhaps you should find a simplistic legality based debate to take part in, that way you can just post someone else’s analysis.
What the west is doing in its support for Ukraine is definitely analogous with ‘Lend Lease’ in strategic terms.
@no1marauder said“ Lend Lease was a temporary program intended to last only so long as it took the American People to be convinced to join the fight. No one had any delusion that the Axis forces could be defeated merely by the supplying of weapons to their outgunned opponents.”
Lend Lease was a temporary program intended to last only so long as it took the American People to be convinced to join the fight. No one had any delusion that the Axis forces could be defeated merely by the supplying of weapons to their outgunned opponents. That is your pathetic fantasy, not FDR's.
So your "best case" is a prolonged, bloody war meant to hurt Russia. I ...[text shortened]... e been destroyed, their economy is in abject ruins, etc. etc. etc. But you want them to suffer more.
“ The Lend-Lease Act stated that the U.S. government could lend or lease (rather than sell) war supplies to any nation deemed “vital to the defense of the United States.” Under this policy, the United States was able to supply military aid to its foreign allies during World War II while still remaining officially neutral in the conflict. Most importantly, passage of the Lend-Lease Act enabled a struggling Great Britain to continue fighting against Germany virtually on its own until the United States entered World War II late in 1941.”
History. Com
Russia is not Germany in terms of its penetrative potential all Ukraine needs is the ordinance to hold a reasonable line against Putin’s forces until Putin accepts the reality that their will be no Greater Russia and no return to its soviet era empire.
@kevcvs57 saidYour ignorance of US history notwithstanding, my comments are correct:
You cannot simply put your own retarded analysis onto a historical fact like lend lease to try and crowbar it into the category of irrelevance.
Lend lease is a slam dunk example of a nation supporting other nations at war short of declaring war on one side or the other.
Your pathetically childish response seems to be your stock in trade for this particular thread. It’s obv ...[text shortened]... st is doing in its support for Ukraine is definitely analogous with ‘Lend Lease’ in strategic terms.
President Roosevelt, who favored U.S. intervention in WWII, advocated creating the program as a way to provide indirect support for the Allies without engaging the U.S. in a war for which there was not yet overwhelming public support.
https://www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/october-23/
Present US and Western policy is going to get a lot of Ukrainians killed while Russia advances in its war.
@no1marauder saidWell done you just reiterated what I said in the post you replied to.
Your ignorance of US history notwithstanding, my comments are correct:
President Roosevelt, who favored U.S. intervention in WWII, advocated creating the program as a way to provide indirect support for the Allies without engaging the U.S. in a war for which there was not yet overwhelming public support.
https://www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/octob ...[text shortened]... t US and Western policy is going to get a lot of Ukrainians killed while Russia advances in its war.
I am well aware of the isolationist movement prior to Pearl Harbour but isolationism is only possible on mars or for nations that have no strategic geopolitical interests, the US is not on mars and has more strategic interests than anyone else on earth. In so far as large parts of Europe are strategic allies it needs to defend it in some way and supporting a nation willing to stand up to an aggressive regime in Russia which in turn is allied to Beijing makes a lot of strategic sense even if you discount the moral imperative which you clearly have.
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@kevcvs57 said
“ Lend Lease was a temporary program intended to last only so long as it took the American People to be convinced to join the fight. No one had any delusion that the Axis forces could be defeated merely by the supplying of weapons to their outgunned opponents.”
“ The Lend-Lease Act stated that the U.S. government could lend or lease (rather than sell) war supplies to any ...[text shortened]... tin accepts the reality that their will be no Greater Russia and no return to its soviet era empire.
The Lend-Lease Act stated that the U.S. government could lend or lease (rather than sell) war supplies to any nation deemed “vital to the defense of the United States.” Under this policy, the United States was able to supply military aid to its foreign allies during World War II while still remaining officially neutral in the conflict.
Ukraine isn’t vital to the defense of the US
@AThousandYoung
No but it is the opening round of Putin's desire to rebuild the Soviet empire.
My question is what country will Putin attack AFTER Ukraine is settled one way or the other.
@athousandyoung saidWhy was the uk and Russia deemed vital to the defence of the us?The Lend-Lease Act stated that the U.S. government could lend or lease (rather than sell) war supplies to any nation deemed “vital to the defense of the United States.” Under this policy, the United States was able to supply military aid to its foreign allies during World War II while still remaining officially neutral in the conflict.
Ukraine isn’t vital to the defense of the US
I believe FDR used a very clever fire hose analogy which still works today.
It is Putin’s stated aim to get the US out of Europe, you seriously do not think that expulsion from Europe is a geopolitical threat to us defence in the long run.
You know they are allied with China right? Their “friendship knows no limits” according to the Chinese leader on the eve of Russias invasion of Ukraine, what do you suppose that means in geopolitical and defence terms?
The attack on Ukraine was an attack on the west / NATO and by association an attack on US interests and its vital defence framework.
@sonhouse saidHe’ll advance further into Georgia or use Transnistria as a staging post for annexing / de nazifying Moldova
@AThousandYoung
No but it is the opening round of Putin's desire to rebuild the Soviet empire.
My question is what country will Putin attack AFTER Ukraine is settled one way or the other.
@athousandyoung saidOnly because it’s ally Japan did that flyby shooting on pearl harbour.
Less than a year after lend lease began Germany declared war on the US…
Ha do you think Russia is in any fit state to take on the US, Putin’s only hope is that people like you win the argument and the US leaves Europe voluntarily. It’s a big market to lose though and if you don’t want China to invade Taiwan and drive the US out of the eastern pacific you’d probably better stop the Sino / Russian alliance in Ukraine.
@kevcvs57 saidHow come you Euros can't defend yourselves from big, bad Russia? The EU has ten times the GDP and twice the population it does. https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2022/03/comparing-russia-and-the-european-union-gdp-and-population/
Only because it’s ally Japan did that flyby shooting on pearl harbour.
Ha do you think Russia is in any fit state to take on the US, Putin’s only hope is that people like you win the argument and the US leaves Europe voluntarily. It’s a big market to lose though and if you don’t want China to invade Taiwan and drive the US out of the eastern pacific you’d probably better stop the Sino / Russian alliance in Ukraine.