@rajk999 saidWhat dead kids parents? I have not seen any dead kids parents on the news giving their sad stories from that music festival. The only video of that music festival I have seen only shows people running away. No shootings or blood spilling.
Tell that to the dead kids parents who were singing and participating in a music festival in the Kibbutz. Or how about the almost 200 hostages they holding.
1 edit
@rajk999 saidThe League of Nations delegated it to the British Empire and the empire saw fit to give Jews land that did not belong to them because it belonged to the Palestinians. Is that accurate?
The land was shared by the UN in conjunction with the British in 1946/47. In 1948 only the Jews accepted. Israel was contented with their portion of the land then.
@metal-brain saidWrong. Lets make a deal. Lets both read up the history of this piece of land, minus the propaganda, and tomorrow we will discuss it. Certainly the Palestinians have rights to the land but the land did not belong to them. Im going to do some research. If there are any history experts who want to contribute objectively, that would be nice.
The League of Nations delegated it to the British Empire and the empire saw fit to give Jews land that did not belong to them because it belonged to the Palestinians. Is that accurate?
@rajk999 saidYou might want to check this article out which shows that Arabs were promised by the British "that the future government of the regions of the Ottoman Empire that were occupied by Allied forces in World War I should be based on the consent of the governed" if the Arabs agreed to revolt against the Turks, which they did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussein_Correspondence
Wrong. Lets make a deal. Lets both read up the history of this piece of land, minus the propaganda, and tomorrow we will discuss it. Certainly the Palestinians have rights to the land but the land did not belong to them. Im going to do some research. If there are any history experts who want to contribute objectively, that would be nice.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying of the Palestinians "the land did not belong to them" if you mean the area included in the Mandate; by 1945 Jews owned only about 5-7% of the area with non-Jewish Palestinians owning at least 10 times that.:
" Official statistics show that Jews privately and collectively owned 1,393,531 dunams (1,393.53 km2), or 5.23% of Palestine's total in 1945.[148][149] The Jewish owned agricultural land was largely located in the Galilee and along the coastal plain. Estimates of the total volume of land that Jews had purchased by 15 May 1948 are complicated by illegal and unregistered land transfers, as well as by the lack of data on land concessions from the Palestine administration after 31 March 1936. According to Avneri, Jews held 1,850,000 dunams (1,850 km2) of land in 1947, or 6.94% of the total.[150] Stein gives the estimate of 2,000,000 dunams (2,000 km2) as of May 1948, or 7.51% of the total.["
"According to Clifford A. Wright, by the end of the British Mandate period in 1948, Jewish farmers cultivated 425,450 dunams of land, while Palestinian farmers had 5,484,700 dunams of land under cultivation.[153] The 1945 UN estimate shows that Arab ownership of arable land was on average 68% of a district, ranging from 15% ownership in the Beer-Sheba district to 99% ownership in the Ramallah district. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine "Land Ownership" section
1 edit
@no1marauder saidHe’s a religious nut referring to the Bible.
You might want to check this article out which shows that Arabs were promised by the British "that the future government of the regions of the Ottoman Empire that were occupied by Allied forces in World War I should be based on the consent of the governed" if the Arabs agreed to revolt against the Turks, which they did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussei ...[text shortened]... amallah district. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine "Land Ownership" section
I also acknowledge the Biblical argument but with limits because I’m not a religious nut
1 edit
From the BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67185260
The Israeli-occupied West Bank is home to three million Palestinians.
In the past 50 years Israel has built settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, where more than 700,000 Jews now live. Settlements are held to be illegal under international law - that is the position of the UN Security Council and the UK government, among others - although Israel rejects this.
This year has been the deadliest year on record for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. According to UNRWA, more than 270 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank so far this tear - with at least 82 of those killings taking place after Hamas's attack in southern Israel on 7 October.
Now Israel has bombed a mosque in the West Bank…
What are Palestinian mothers, children and civilians supposed to do?
4 edits
@rajk999 saidDammit I wrote a long post with maps and the site crashed and I lost it all.
Wrong. Lets make a deal. Lets both read up the history of this piece of land, minus the propaganda, and tomorrow we will discuss it. Certainly the Palestinians have rights to the land but the land did not belong to them. Im going to do some research. If there are any history experts who want to contribute objectively, that would be nice.
OLD TESTAMENT TIMES:
Canaan (including Jews)
Egypt
Israel and Philistines
Assyrian, Persian, Babylonian Empires (not necessarily in that order)
INTER-TESTAMENT TIMES - Alexander the Great and his generals
NEW TESTAMENT TIMES - Roman Palestine
QURAN TIMES - Rashidun Caliphate
Early Modern Times - Turkish Empire
World Wars - British Empire
Modern Times - UN partitions Israel and Palestine, next year Israel declares unconditional nationalist independence because they have a massive influx of traumatized and pissed off Ashkenazim who ain't gonna take anyone's BS no more
Individuals vary on how far back they think "legitimate ownership" goes and at what point "that was history and we can ignore it" starts. Also strong variation in how much religion and ethnocentrism affect this determination.
@athousandyoung saidThen he should take it to Spirituality.
He’s a religious nut referring to the Bible.
I also acknowledge the Biblical argument but with limits because I’m not a religious nut
I find it too absurd to waste time and space in Debates to discuss why someone would think that an Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent God needs a particular group of humans to possess a certain area of dirt on a rather insufficient planet in order to fulfill some convoluted Grand Plan.
@rajk999 saidWhat am I wrong about? Be specific.
Wrong. Lets make a deal. Lets both read up the history of this piece of land, minus the propaganda, and tomorrow we will discuss it. Certainly the Palestinians have rights to the land but the land did not belong to them. Im going to do some research. If there are any history experts who want to contribute objectively, that would be nice.
The land did not belong to the Jews before the League of Nations got involved.
By all means, do your research. Look up Lawrence of Arabia while you are at it. He promised the Palestinians the land if they fought off the Ottoman empire on behalf of the British Empire.
https://israelforever.org/state/Mandate_for_Palestine_Jewish_State/
Notice that an "empire" created Israel from land they promised to the Palestinians. The British reneged on that promise which was a deep betrayal.
@athousandyoung saidThe British Empire never "owned" Palestine; according to the terms of the Mandate they only "administered it" and that was only to be until "until such time as they are able to stand alone." The last is typical Western arrogance but all the Mandates had obligations to the inhabitants of the territories which were supervised by the League of Nations and thus none were "owned" by the Mandatory Power.
Dammit I wrote a long post with maps and the site crashed and I lost it all.
OLD TESTAMENT TIMES:
Canaan (including Jews)
Egypt
Israel and Philistines
Assyrian, Persian, Babylonian Empires (not necessarily in that order)
INTER-TESTAMENT TIMES - Alexander the Great and his generals
NEW TESTAMENT TIMES - Roman Palestine
QURAN TIMES - Rashidun Caliphate
...[text shortened]... it" starts. Also strong variation in how much religion and ethnocentrism affect this determination.
3 edits
@no1marauder saidMaybe but considering Egypt was a British colony until 1922, Sinai a British controlled canal and the Emirate of Transjordan was a British protectorate which was a central artery connecting Egypt with India I wonder if that a "distinction without a difference" to borrow a phrase I've seen you use.
The British Empire never "owned" Palestine; according to the terms of the Mandate they only "administered it" and that was only to be until "until such time as they are able to stand alone." The last is typical Western arrogance but all the Mandates had obligations to the inhabitants of the territories which were supervised by the League of Nations and thus none were "owned" by the Mandatory Power.
If we take the League of Nations Mandate seriously then we have to acknowledge that Jews "owned" some percentage of British administered formerly Turkish Palestine as a "national homeland".
@no1marauder
"until such time as they are able to stand alone."
I think that quote is interesting because they are still not standing alone. My government is giving Israel billions of free money earmarked for weapons every year and they got a couple of aircraft carriers sent there for military support if needed. Hardly standing alone.
Empires install puppet governments to serve their interests. It is what empires do. The British Empire installed a puppet government in Iraq after WW1. This is not a conspiracy theory and is historical fact. Iraqis figured out it was a puppet government and overthrew it. The notion that Israel is not another puppet of the British Empire is absurd to me. Now the USA is part of the empire. An alliance has been forged at some point in history between the British and American Empires. I call it the Western Empire. It is the only logical explanation for why a British puppet state appears to be an American puppet state. I don't recall us stealing Israel from the British Empire, so the USA must have merged with the British Empire in some way.
The post that was quoted here has been removedGrow up. All religions are stupid.
The PLO is secular. That is why Israel thought they could divide Palestinians with Hamas. It was to appeal to the religious fanaticism of Palestinians and marginalize the PLO. Israel thought the PLO was a greater threat because they wanted a 2 state solution and Israel did not want a Palestinian state.