Originally posted by dfm65I thought the song topical because it is about injustice perpetrated by the British police. Lawd, even U2 sing about it.
nationalism prevails, even among musicians: hence The Pogues bemoan the imprisonment of innocent Irish, but are silent about the deaths of innocent Britons.
Here's another song celebrating your infallible British police...
Sonny's Lettah
-Linton Kwesi Johnson
From Brixton Prison, Jebb Avenue London S.W. 2 Inglan
Dear mama
good day
I hope that when these few lines reach you they may
find you in the best of health
I doun know how to tell ya dis
for I did mek a solemn promise
to tek care a lickle Jim
an try mi bes fi look out fi him
mama, I really did try mi bes
but none a di less
sorry fi tell ya seh, poor lickle Jim get arres
it was de miggle a di rush hour
hevrybody jus a hustle and a bustle
to go home fi dem evenin shower
mi an Jim stan up waitin pon a bus
not causin no fuss
when all of a sudden a police van pull up
out jump tree policemen
de whole a dem carryin baton
dem walk straight up to me and Jim
one a dem hold on to Jim
seh dem tekin him in
Jim tell him fi leggo a him
for him nah do nutt'n
and 'im nah t'ief, not even a but'n
Jim start to wriggle
de police start to giggle
mama, mek I tell you wa dem do to Jim?
mek I tell you wa dem do to 'im?
Dem thump him him in him belly and it turn to jelly
Dem lick 'im pon 'im back and 'im rib get pop
Dem thump him pon him head but it tough like lead
Dem kick 'im in 'im seed and it started to bleed
Mama, I jus couldn't stan up deh, nah do nuttin'
So mi jook one in him eye and him started fi cry
me thump him pon him mout and him started fi shout
me kick him pon him shin so him started fi spin
me hit him pon him chin an him drop pon a bin
- an crash, an dead
More policman come dung
dem beat me to the grung
dem charge Jim fi sus (*for looking suspicious)
dem charge mi fi murdah
mama, doan fret
doan get depress an downhearted
be of good courage
till I hear from you
I remain
Your son,
Sonny
Originally posted by dfm65Yes, so that's why they wrote a song about them. Because they were innocent. Your question about whether anyone wrote songs about IRA victims misses the point completely.
yes, but weren't they convicted because it was thought they had engaged in IRA terrorism? it was that terrorism that induced the climate in London that led to them being arrested - the police were looking for those responsible for setting off bombs, and they got the wrong people.
I'd say that corrupt police officers and political pressure to find those responsible were the reasons they were wrongly convicted.
The climate after these events isn't just dictated by the events themselves. The police, politicians and the press make a huge difference - the head of the met said the guy they shot was 'directly connected' to the terrorist acts - the Sun headline said something like 'one down, 3 to go' etc etc.
If people aren't rational about this, we'll end with an alienated Mulsim communty (= more bombers) and innocent people shot or locked up.
Most Muslims aren't suicide bombers, just as most Irish people have never been in the IRA.
Originally posted by rhbno-one is suggesting it is. he was shot in the head because he was being investigated in relation to recent terrorist bombings, and when challenged by police fled into a tube station and onto a train, leading police to believe there was a reasonable probability he was planning to detonate an explosive device and kill a number of people. i can't see what's so hard to understand about that.
no excuse to shoot him though.
Originally posted by RedmikeNo, but at the time there was a real threat from Irish terrorism just as now there is a real threat from Islamic terrorism.
Most Muslims aren't suicide bombers, just as most Irish people have never been in the IRA.
Unfortunately, the terrorists not only kill innocent people, they also place innocent people (their own) under suspicion.
That's just the way it is, just as all men fitting the description were under suspicion when Peter Sutcliffe was on the loose.
Originally posted by VargI have quite a few Irish friends who were badly beaten by police while living in London in the 90s, just for being irish. Luckily for them, they weren't living in todays climate where cops can kill innocent people, and concoct stories about them being terrorists.
No, but at the time there was a real threat from Irish terrorism just as now there is a real threat from Islamic terrorism.
Unfortunately, the terrorists not only kill innocent people, they also place innocent people (their own) under suspicion.
That's just the way it is, just as all men fitting the description were under suspicion when Peter Sutcliffe was on the loose.
D
Originally posted by RedmikeYes they were innocent. and so were the people killed in IRA blasts. why do we have songs about one group of innocents and not the other? The Pogues and U2 are Irish bands and they write songs about innocent Irish locked up in British jails, while remaining silent about Britons killed by Irish terrorist bombs. they are being merely nationalistic rather than truly humanitarian. true humanitarians would bemoan injustices perpetrated by both sides. and it's quite romantic to sing songs against the authorities isn't it - esp in the rock tradition. in Australia it's Waltzing Matilda and songs about how Ned Kelly (a bushranger) was gunned down by police. no mention of the murders and robberies he'd done.
Yes, so that's why they wrote a song about them. Because they were innocent. Your question about whether anyone wrote songs about IRA victims misses the point completely.
I'd say that corrupt police officers and political pressure to find those responsible were the reasons they were wrongly convicted.
The climate after these events isn't just dictat ...[text shortened]... .
Most Muslims aren't suicide bombers, just as most Irish people have never been in the IRA.
Originally posted by dfm65That doesn't justify declaring open season on everyone who PC Plodd thinks looks like a Muslim (and this guy doesn't even fit the stereotypical appearance).
However, it appears that most (if not all) suicide bombers are Muslims, just as most (if not all) IRA members were Irish.
Originally posted by dfm65Musicians are likely to write about their own experiences.
Yes they were innocent. and so were the people killed in IRA blasts. why do we have songs about one group of innocents and not the other? The Pogues and U2 are Irish bands and they write songs about innocent Irish locked up in British jails, while remaining silent about Britons killed by Irish terrorist bombs. they are being merely nationalistic rather than tr ...[text shortened]... ly (a bushranger) was gunned down by police. no mention of the murders and robberies he'd done.
Therefore McGowan is likely to write about what it is like to be Irish in London at this time. The same song quoted above also talks about victims of the 'troubles'.
I'm not aware of any U2 songs along these lines (though I know less about U2 generally).
Originally posted by RedmikeDoes anybody have any figures on the numbers of petty criminals that run from police??? I'd say 99% of joyriders and hoodrats run.
That doesn't justify declaring open season on everyone who PC Plodd thinks looks like a Muslim (and this guy doesn't even fit the stereotypical appearance).
Are they all terrorists now, and will they all get pinned to the ground with 5 bullets to the head?
All you people who are saying that the police did the right thing are advocating open season on thousands of people by agreeing with their decision to execute somebody for wearing a jacket, listening to music and running (like thousands yearly) from the police.
D
Originally posted by dfm65Sheesh, the Pogues aren't quite as one-dimensional as that! They bemoan all kinds of problems...off the top of my head, fascism and homophobia in Civil War Spain (Lorca's Novena), the plight of the working man (Navigator), and the pointlessness of war (their cover of the Australian anti-war song Waltzing Matilda)...Of course in U2's case I agree with you, totally one dimensional 🙂
The Pogues and U2 are Irish bands and they write songs about innocent Irish locked up in British jails, while remaining silent about Britons killed by Irish terrorist bombs. they are being merely nationalistic rather than truly humanitarian. true humanitarians would bemoan injustices perpetrated by both sides. .
Originally posted by VargSadly, this incident has contributed to the success of terrorism. The police shoot someone dead and people on this site can find persuasive arguments to justify that it is alright for our own police to shoot people acting suspiciously. So now we have to be afraid of both suspicious looking people with bulky clothes or rucksacks AND our own police who might accidentally have to shoot you.
No, but at the time there was a real threat from Irish terrorism just as now there is a real threat from Islamic terrorism.
Unfortunately, the terrorists not only kill innocent people, they also place innocent people (their own) under suspicion.
That's just the way it is, just as all men fitting the description were under suspicion when Peter Sutcliffe was on the loose.
I agree with Vardlys back on page 3 that I would rather live with a slightly higher terror threat than live in a state where the police shoot to kill on suspicion rather than because they believe there is a certain threat. (Note, I am not arguing that the police can NEVER shoot to kill).
Who would you rather be killed by? Your enemies or your protectors?
For me, the reason for opposing the police's shoot to kill policy in this incidence is the same one that I would give for opposing the death penalty. It is not possible to be 100% certain of guilt and the existence of doubt means that I don't want the state (the people who represent me, i.e. me) responsible for killing the innocent.