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Originally posted by Redmikeno-one has declared open season on anyone, and no-one has suggested that they ought to. in fact, authorities, including the police, have gone out of their way to make it clear Muslim communities are not being targetted. however, if that's where the forensic evidence leads them, that's where they have to go...
That doesn't justify declaring open season on everyone who PC Plodd thinks looks like a Muslim (and this guy doesn't even fit the stereotypical appearance).
EDIT: i think the fact that the guy doesn't fit the stereotypical Muslim appearance suggests that people of Muslim appearance are not being especially targetted.
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Originally posted by dfm65There always was a difficulty with the idea, stated whenever they propose ID cards or whatever, that innocent people have nothing to fear. Now we have a situation where people who have some petty thing to hide are in fear of being shot for it.
turns out the Brazilian who got shot was on an expired visa. it is thought that might be why he ran from police.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm
The policy of shoot to kill is stupid, at a distance you are likely to miss and by the time you have got to a range where you are likely to hit they have had time to set off any explosives they may have. So the only people who are liable to be killed by it are bystanders or the innocent, who want to avoid the police for something trivial - for example many of the female prison population are there for non payment of fines.
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Originally posted by Bosse de Nagewell, Redmike says musicians are likely to write about their own experiences, and you're saying the Pogues wrote about the Spanish civil war and other stuff they didn't experience directly. which is it to be? if they could write about the Spanish civil war, surely they could spare a song for the innocents killed by IRA bombs? after all, since they were living in London, that was part of their experience too?
Sheesh, the Pogues aren't quite as one-dimensional as that! They bemoan all kinds of problems...off the top of my head, fascism and homophobia in Civil War Spain (Lorca's Novena), the plight of the working man (Navigator), and the p ...[text shortened]... rse in U2's case I agree with you, totally one dimensional 🙂
and is Waltzing Matilda an anti-war song? unless there's some kind of allegorical meaning hidden beneath the lyrics about a swagman (rural itinerant) who steals a jumbuk (sheep) and kills himself by jumping into a billabong (pond) to avoid arrest, it escapes me...
Originally posted by dfm65Redmike can say what he likes (I think he's talking about Billy Bragg ). I don't think a musician has to have experienced an event to write about it--he needs empathy, imagination, and impeccable song writing skills. I offer Neil Young's song Pocahontas as an example of this. And Bob Dylan's Hurricane, about Reuben Carter, the boxer framed for murder by the police.
well, Redmike says musicians are likely to write about their own experiences, and you're saying the Pogues wrote about the Spanish civil war and other stuff they didn't experience directly. which is it to be? if they could write about the Spanish civil war, surely they could spare a song for the innocents killed by IRA bombs? after all, since they were livin ...[text shortened]... k (sheep) and kills himself by jumping into a billabong (pond) to avoid arrest, it escapes me...
I don't hold the Pogues up as shining examples of humanitarianism (just look at Shane) but some of their songs are dead brilliant, hit the bullseye, and Birmingham 6 is one of them.
Why haven't any English bands sung about IRA victims? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, that is the correct title of the song.
I may as well paste it here...
Now when I was a young man and I carried my pack
And I lived the free life of the rover
From the murray’s green basin to the dusty out back
I waltzed my matilda all over.
Then in 1915 my country said son
It’s time to stop rambling, there’s work to be done
And they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun
And they sent me away to the war.
And the band played waltzing matilda
As the ships pulled away from the quay
And amid all the tears, flag waving and cheers
We sailed off to galipolli
And how I remember that terrible day
How our blood stained the sand and the water
And how in that hell that they called suvla bay
We were butchered like lambs to the slaughter.
Johnnie turk was ready, oh he primed himself well
He rained us with bullets and he showered us with shell
And in five minutes flat we were all blown to hell
Nearly blew us all back home to australia.
But the band played waltzing matilda
As we stuck to bury our slain
We burned ours and the turks buried theirs
And we started all over again
Those who were living just tried to survive
In a mad world of blood death and fire
And for ten weary weeks, I kept myself alive
While around me the corpses piled higher
Then a big turkish shell knocked me arse over head
And when I awoke in my hospital bed
And saw what it had done and I wished I was dead
Never knew there were worse things than dying
For no more I’ll go waltzing matilda
All round the green bush far and near
For to hump tent and pegs a man needs both legs
No more waltzing matilda for me.
They collected the crippled, the wounded, the maimed
And they shipped us back home to australia
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane
Those proud wounded heroes of suvla
And as our ship pulled in to circular key
And I looked at the place where my legs used to be
I thanked christ there was no one there waiting for me
To grieve and to mourn and to pity
And the band played waltzing matilda
As they carried us down the gangway
But nobody cheered, they just stood there and stared
And turned all their faces away
So now every april, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march
Renewing their dreams of past glory
I see the old men all tired, stiff and sore
The weary old heroes of a forgotten war
And the young people ask what are they marching for?
And I ask myself the same question
And the band played waltzing matilda
And the old men still answer the call
But year after year, the numbers get fewer
Some day none will march there at all
Waltzing matilda, waltzing matilda
Who’ll come a waltzing matilda with me
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong
Who’ll come a waltzing matilda with me.
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Originally posted by Bosse de Nagehere's the original Waltzing Matilda - it's the song mentioned in your song when it says 'and the band played 'Waltzing Matilda'...
Redmike can say what he likes (I think he's talking about Billy Bragg ). I don't think a musician has to have experienced an event to write about it--he needs empathy, imagination, and impeccable song writing skills. I offer Neil Y ...[text shortened]... march by the billabong
Who’ll come a waltzing matilda with me.
the Pogues sing your song - we were talking about different songs.
Once a jolly swagman camped by a Billabong
Under the shade of a Coolabah tree
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled
"Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?"
Down come a jumbuck to drink at the water hole
Up jumped a swagman and grabbed him in glee
And he sang as he stowed him away in his tucker bag
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me'".
Up rode the Squatter a riding his thoroughbred
Up rode the Trooper - one, two, three
"Where's that jumbuck you've got in your tucker bag?",
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me".
But the swagman he up and jumped in the water hole
Drowning himself by the Coolabah tree,
And his ghost may be heard as it sings in the Billabong,
"Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?"
EDIT: there's a chorus that isn't listed here, and i seem to remember some additional lyrics...
A.B. (Banjo) Paterson
Originally posted by dfm65Which is about a guy stealing a sheep isn't it?
here's the original Waltzing Matilda - it's the song mentioned in your song when it says 'and the band played 'Waltzing Matilda'...
the Pogues sing your song - we were talking about different songs.
Once a jolly swagman camped by a Billabong
Under the shade of a Coolabah tree
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled
"Who'll ...[text shortened]... n't listed here, and i seem to remember some additional lyrics...
A.B. (Banjo) Paterson
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Originally posted by dfm65I'm not saying musicians are only going to write about their own experiences. I'm saying that McGowan, as an Irish person living in London is going to have a very different view on the IRA campaign than an English person, and that this will be refelcted in what he writes about.
well, Redmike says musicians are likely to write about their own experiences, and you're saying the Pogues wrote about the Spanish civil war and other stuff they didn't experience directly. which is it to be? if they could write about the S ...[text shortened]... jumping into a billabong (pond) to avoid arrest, it escapes me...
That doesn't mean he won't write about things he hasn't directly experienced.
I can't think of any songs specifically about IRA victims. There are lots of songs lamenting the whole problem though, and not just by Irish bands (Simple Minds' Belfast Child springs to mind).
The Pogues Waltzing Matilda song is with different words - about troops coming back from Gallipoli etc. Two different songs - one referring to the other, with the same music.
Originally posted by dfm65Did any UK musicians write songs about the 100,000 innocents who died in the firebombing of Dresden by the RAF? Or was that merely accepted as the price of war? Why are the relative few British civilians killed by IRA bombs more important than the people of Dresden? Or than the millions of Irish who died due to the British occupation and repression?
well, Redmike says musicians are likely to write about their own experiences, and you're saying the Pogues wrote about the Spanish civil war and other stuff they didn't experience directly. which is it to be? if they could write about the Spanish civil war, surely they could spare a song for the innocents killed by IRA bombs? after all, since they were livin ...[text shortened]... k (sheep) and kills himself by jumping into a billabong (pond) to avoid arrest, it escapes me...
Originally posted by SiskinThat's pretty amusing; in the Debates Forum I'm routinely called "anti-American". Since we were discussing the UK and Ireland, the RAF was the air force that was on point; of course, the US Army Air Corps (there was no USAF at the time) also took part in the firebombing of Dresden. Is there a point lurking somewhere in your post?
The USAF bombed Dresden as well, but of course No1, everything bad that ever happened in the world is Britain's fault.
The point of my post, was that an incident that was a joint US and British operation that you comdemn, you only refer to the British participents. Strikes me as a little partial.
You were right about it being the USAAF rather than the USAF, I have corrected my original post.
Don't know offhand of any songs about the Dresden bombing, but John Lennon was born during the German bombing of Liverpool, but I don't know that he wrote a song about that either.