An Old Earth History of Satan

Originally posted by JS357
You say; "I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."

also,

" I believe that God knew from eternity the potential of creating beings with free will. "

Respecting your adherence to Biblical sources in this thread, I ask two things:

What are the Bi ...[text shortened]... he bestowal? Or did God choose to be ignorant of the actual outcomes of the bestowal?

First I think I better give some attention to one of the grumpier posters. Give me some time please.

Originally posted by sonship
First I think I better give some attention to one of the grumpier posters. Give me some time please.

It is some sort of natural law that, over time, grumpy posts will come to dominate any given thread. You are contributing to this pattern.

Grumpy enough for ya?🙂

Stella,

blaming free will is a total cop-out.

Cop out from what ?

Do you think you are a total robot ? I sense that I can decide some things this way or that way in my choice of actions of my will.

It makes sense to me that it gives God creater pleasure and glory to create beings who may choose Him or refuse Him according to their will.

Doesn't that make sense to you ? And I am probably not going to go off on a long tangent into philosophy before I finish writing all I need to about the origin of the enemy of God and man.

This will appear as evading some hand waving to go down another road of argumentation, because it is that.

can you explain why free will makes some people do evil?

This is a long philsophical tangent which I am going to evade just now. I have a burden to speak first mainly on the origin of Satan.

At this point I would only say that in Genesis the dichotomy originally presented before man was not good and evil. Rather it was divine life on one side as a source and the knowledge of good and evil on the other side as a source.

There were two sources of man's existence - the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The implication is that our evil is certainly against God.
But our "good" may also be against God.

Did you ever think about good and evil being on one tree?
Did you ever consider that it was not a tree of good verses a tree of evil. This would have been the typical human concept.

That fact that the knowledge of good and evil were on the same tree over against God Himself signified as the tree of life touches me as proof that the record is not human but above human - divine.

Compared to something in mythology like Pandora's box it is more profound. Man's first fall was not in choosing evil against good. Rather it was choosing another way beside God as life.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a tree bringing death. And it was another way. It was the other way. There was God and there was "the other way."

There is God as eternal life and there is another way - the other way. The other way, whether good or evil, brings death.

When I contemplate man before the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge and evil I consider that this record is profound. It is above human opinion. This must be a writing of a Divine Mind.

I have to go now on an errand.

Originally posted by sonship
Stella,

blaming free will is a total cop-out.

Cop out [b]from what ?

Do you think you are a total robot ? I sense that I can decide some things this way or that way in my choice of actions of my will.

It makes sense to me that it gives God creater pleasure and glory to create beings who may choose Him or refuse Him ac man opinion. This must be a writing of a Divine Mind.

I have to go now on an errand.[/b]

"Do you think you are a total robot ? I sense that I can decide some things this way or that way in my choice of actions of my will."

you are answering questions i did not ask. i am asking you to explain how free will operates, where it comes from. what makes one persons free will choose good and anothers bad. what causes the different choices they make?

once again ill will ask, did the being who later became satan exist before god granted free will?


edit: the reason i called free-will a cop out is because it explains nothing. just saying 'its because god created free will' doesnt clarify anything until you explain what free will is and how it works.

you are answering questions i did not ask. i am asking you to explain how free will operates, where it comes from.

It is an ability put there by our Creator.

what makes one persons free will choose good and anothers bad. what causes the different choices they make?

That is a good question. I don't know except the sentient being has its idea about what will make it happy.

once again ill will ask, did the being who later became satan exist before god granted free will?

No. I thought the verses were pretty clear. This being was made full of wisdom and corrupted his wisdom is what it says.

" ... you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness." (v.17a)

God did not corrupt his wisdom. The Anointed Cherub corrupted his own wisdom.

Apparently a wisdom which made this being "perfect in beauty" was not a wisdom that could not be corrupted - "O you sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." (v.12)

He must have been the first being to so corrupt wisdom. He did so to the point that he as cast away from the government of God -

"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trading they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you out as profane from the mountain of God, I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." (vs. 15,16)

edit: the reason i called free-will a cop out is because it explains nothing.

I don't agree that it explains nothing. And I don't see the reason as a cop out or escape to anything.

just saying 'its because god created free will' doesnt clarify anything until you explain what free will is and how it works.

I don't think in this thread on the Old Earth History of Satan I need to get too much more philosophical. Questions like "Well what IS free will" may be valid for rigorous analysis philosophically. I mean what IS free will ? What is FREE will ?? What is FREE ... WILL ??? Maybe before we can know THAT we need to know what IS is anyway.

God has an ability to exercise his will power to choose. And the creatures he created reflect something from Him which He bestowed upon them.

If you want to argue that Satan didn't have a free will, it is not a major problem to this thread which is about his origin. At best one can just say that the philosophy behind the explanations the Scripture give are not philosophically explained to some thinking people.

That's OK to my purpose of exposing Satan's biblical origins.

Here it clearly says that he wasn't perfect, but "perfect in your ways".

" ... full of wisdom and perfect in beauty

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you."

Combined with the fact that there was unrighteousness FOUND in him, it can only be concluded that god on purpose created a being with unrighteousness in him and then apparently hoped that it wouldn't come out.

No, I think like all other beings God purposed that unrighteousness not be found in him in the first place. Once it did God's infinite wisdom knew how to handle it. And He would make an example of such a being to be a lesson to all creation ever after.

Since god is the creator of everything he's also the creator of unrighteousness itself.

Not at all. A being as high as this Anointed Cherub had some creating ability. We may not know to what extent he could originate something.

In another portion of the Bible, Isaiah 14, we see five "I wills" of this same creature. He originated a will besides the will of God.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Daystar, son of the dawn ! How you have been hewn down to earth, You made nations fall prostrate!

But you, you said in your heart:
I will ascend to the heaven; Above the stars of God
I will exalt my throne and
I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High." (Isa. 14:12-14)

In terms we can understand this being WILLED to be like the Most High God. He could not be higher than God which is impossible. He sought to be life the Most High. This willing within his free will introduced unrighteousness and deception in the universe.

So god created unrighteousness,

This itself is the thought of Satan and the lie which Satan propogates - that God is a arbitrary tyrant. But we would just listen to him (Satan), we would reach our full potential.

Satan's activity is always to reverse reality - that is make man think that God is the Devil and that the Devil is God.

He is a slanderer. He is an accuser of man before God and an accuser of God in the minds of men.

And if that weren't enough, people all over the world STILL get on their knees and worship this god.

Not really. I worship God while driving, walking, sitting and even running or swimming.

Eventhough the four year old child that died a horrible, painful death as a result of cancer did so because of god's "Let's-see-what-happens" attitude.

Tragedies do happen. Many are very hard to explain why such a thing happened.

At least the believer in Christ sees that the direction towards which God is steering all creation is a state in which there will be no crying or tears or pain or death forever.

"And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (Rev. 21:4)

Now we are in the day of the "former things" which are present with us - tears, crying, death and pain. And it is not always easy to give easy answers for some of life's tragedies.

But we see the Son of God Who was crucified and turned death into life victoriously. And we know that He is steering all creation to a consummation in which these former things will be vanquished forever.

So rather than join Satan in his slander and blame against God we trust in our heavenly Father. No matter how low we may go down underneath us is the Savior Jesus Christ.

Seriously, who needs Satan when you have god? How much worse could Satan possibly be??

The life, words, deeds, death and resurrection of Jesus impress some of us more than the skeptic's clever sarcasm.

God didn't create an evil Satan. God created a good and perfect archangel. But at a certain time, this archangel rebelled against God.

Satan rebelled against God because of pride in his heart. His heart was lifted up because of his beauty (Ezek. 28:17). Of course today Satan lies to man to induce man to blame God for Satan's existence.

As we can see this is the attitude of some objectors already in this thread.

This being "sealed up the sum" (v.12) meaning that he had the full measure of completeness. He was short of nothing. He sealed up the sum of created perfection in a living being.

This is a temptation that man faces - that is to look at what God has made us and forget God Himself. The swollen conceit of increased knowledge or humanitarian deeds can cause men to be like Satan. They are filled with pride in what they are and forget their Creator.

To look only at what God has made us and forget God Himself always tempts us to be proud. Accordingly the Apostle Paul warned not to commit too much to a novice in the work for God or he will fall into the condemnation of the Devil (1 Timothy 3:6) - "lest being blinded with pride he fall into the judgment of the Devil."

All natural virtues and attributes, and all spiritual gifts can be utilized by the Devil to make men proud. Even the Apostle Paul was not exempt from this temptation. Because of the abundance of revelations Paul said he could be "exceedingly lifted up by the transcendence of the revelations" ( 2 Cor. 12:7).

The only way to resist the devil is to humble ourselves. When we touch Jesus Christ we automatically touch His humility. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (1 Pet. 5:9, 5-6)

The night I called upon the Lord Jesus Christ to take me home to Himself, I simultaneously felt humbled but lifted up too. I felt humbled under the mighty hand of God. I felt exalted in the transcendent exaltation of the Son of God.

I went down and while going down I went up. Satan exalted himself, but the Lord Jesus "humbled Himself" (Phil. 2:8) . Therefore the man Jesus totally overcame Satan. And Jesus said that Satan had nothing in Him (John 14:30) .

Originally posted by sonship
First I think I better give some attention to one of the grumpier posters. Give me some time please.

Your replies show that you believe that your god is definitely NOT all-knowing or all-powerful. Maybe you are making progress, lol.
Your god may just be some demi-god serving a truly great god who IS all-knowing and all-powerful. After all, no one has seen or heard from your god in several thousand years. 😛

Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
This guy is another nut like R J Hinds.
He won't give you a straight answer.
He'll just quote passages from a book
that was written by men, not by any God.

The whole thread is spam.

I have already presented my understanding of Genesis and it is not an old earth viewpoint. I believe Lucifer, or Satan, was created in the spiritual heaven before time and the Genesis account of the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. Look it up.

The Instructor

Originally posted by JS357
You say; "I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."

also,

" I believe that God knew from eternity the potential of creating beings with free will. "

Respecting your adherence to Biblical sources in this thread, I ask two things:

What are the Bi ...[text shortened]... he bestowal? Or did God choose to be ignorant of the actual outcomes of the bestowal?

Excuse the delay JS357,

You say; "I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."

Yes. We are dealing with a wisdom and knowledge that has the ultimate foresight and foreknowledge.

also,

" I believe that God knew from eternity the potential of creating beings with free will. "

Yes. Human words are limited. We think in terms of time and cannot hardly think otherwise. The phrase from eternity is my limited way of expressing that probably all eternity is known to God perfectly. That is what free beings will choose or change their choice or change again or decide for this or for that.

Some see a conflict in God knowing and man's so-called freedom. That dilemma has not yet stumped me. He knows. We do not know. And neither do we sense any coercion or usurpation of our freedom to choose.

If there is something deeper going on, I don't know very much about that yet.

Respecting your adherence to Biblical sources in this thread, I ask two things:

What are the Biblical sources for what you think, and believe, as stated in these two quotes, about God knowing the potential outcomes of the bestowal of free will?

I don't know if I could give you a quote that is not arguable. My interpretations of Scripture are not infallible.

But at the moment a verse which I recently mused over suggests that God has granted the freedom of two kinds of people to continued just as they are if they so wish. This is Revelation 22:11 -

"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still."

This has the flavor to me of God saying in essence " Do not interfere with the choice of living that each one makes. If he is filthy and unrighteous, just let him continue in that state. If he is holy and righteous being associated with the holy and righteous Lord and Savior - let him just continue in that enjoyment.

Can you sense the freedom in this passage. "Let each just follow his self chosen way of life."

Now if you consider the life of Joseph in the book of Genesis, you should detect God's absolute foreknowledge. Joseph had a dream of being exalted over his parents and his brothers. For this dream his brothers hated him. And for this dream they persecuted him and sold him to slave owners. Then in Egypt God used his misfortune as a catalyst to fulfill the very dreams that got him into trouble.

This was a wonderful window into the foreknowledge of God and His transcendence over time as we know it.

The way I see it the brothers didn't HAVE to hate Joseph for his dream. But when they did God used it to work for the blessing of Joseph in a sovereign way. The foreknowledge of God seems to have been at work. And the freedom of choice of the jealous brothers who envied him was at work as well.

I think we just have to accept the fact that God greatly transcends us. I don't think the fact diminishes man's creature dignity. It may simply place man in proper perspective in relation to God who loves him so extensively - as proved by the coming of Jesus His Son.

Second, what if any Biblical sources would limit God to knowing the potential of these outcomes,

I would not argue too much over this. In the example I gave of the life of Joseph in Genesis the dreams Joseph had and how they came true show something of God's foreknowledge and providence and man's choices.

He has the ability to cause all things to work together for good to those who love God and who are called according to His purpose.

and not know the actuality of precisely which creatures would go to the evil side, and when, and how, they would do this? Did the bestowal of free will by God necessarily entail His ignorance as to the actual outcomes of the bestowal? Or did God choose to be ignorant of the actual outcomes of the bestowal?

I tend to think that God knows what you will choose. I could be wrong. But I don't think we know. To our sense we can come to Him or we can go from Him. And we can change our mind. And we can change our mind again. He know we would choose. He knew we would choose again. And He knew we would choose yet again.

In other words I cannot fault God or His foreknowledge. Some say God's foreknowledge means we do not have freedom in choice. But I don't think that is so. But it is a rather deep philosophical paradox which has been batted around by very smart minds for a very long time.

I think God knew that this being would become Satan. Putting my finger on a passage that definitely states that, I might not be able to do. So it is my musing on an interpretation of biblical themes.

My interpretation is not infallible.

None of this causes me to hesitate believing what is clearly told about the origin of Satan in either Ezekiel 28 or Isaiah 14. Either way, those facts are simple there. And a earthly king of Tyre doesn't make good sense for the qualities described in many instances of that being. Rather a superhuman person better fits the characteristics in too many places.

)Originally posted by sonship
Excuse the delay JS357,

You say; "I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."

Yes. We are dealing with a wisdom and knowledge that has the ultimate foresight and foreknowledge.

[quote]
also,

" I believe that God knew fr ...[text shortened]... er a superhuman person better fits the characteristics in too many places.

"I tend to think that God knows what you will choose."

But you seem to admit, there is no definite Bible verse(s) that support this thought of yours. That is enough for me, about your ideas. With all respect, thanks.

Originally posted by sonship
Before I give more attention to arguing about free will I wish to share more about the Anointed Cherub and why he fell and became Satan.

Ezekiel says [b]"Every precious stone was your covering." The covering may indicate this beings dwelling place. This being had a dwelling place of precious stones.

Now it cannot escape our notice that t ...[text shortened]... m by reason of your brightness." (v.17a) [/b]

Cont. below[/b]

This is another cop out.

What use has any God for precious stones?

Man and his greed for possessions would be the only
creature that gold and other precious stones would appeal to.
Not any God or any angel.

Just goes to show that the book you quote from was written by men
and it inspires the greed and aspirations of men, not any God.

Why don't you see reason and stop putting faith in fairy tales?

Thanks for your thorough response, Sonship. I'll respond to it later.

Originally posted by sonship

you are answering questions i did not ask. i am asking you to explain how free will operates, where it comes from.

It is an ability put there by our Creator.

what makes one persons free will choose good and anothers bad. what causes the different choices they make?

That is a good question. I don't know except t ...[text shortened]... ng people.

That's OK to my purpose of exposing Satan's biblical origins.

if you use 'free will' as an explanation for evil then you need to be able to explain why and how it works. other wise you are just inventing a dues ex machina.

lets look at the 'facts'. satan is created perfect. so he has a perfect soul and a perfect brain. yet when he makes decisions he makes evil ones????? why? this makes no sense what so ever. for a person to make evil decisions they must have a evil personality or soul.

just saying 'free will' did it but not being able to explain how and why is a total cop-out.

Originally posted by vistesd
Pretty good stuff here, Jay. I won’t address all of it, or derail your presentation, but I want to make what I see as a small possible “correction”—the verb hayetah is in the perfect tense, indicating something that is an already completed action. “Was” is certainly acceptable (and probably the most oft-used translation) as long as that is understoo ...[text shortened]... le interpretations.

EDIT: Oh, I see that you already replied to Rank Outsider on that point.

Vistesd, thanks for your note.

The discussions of hayetah in Arthur Custance's book Without Form and Void are technically very demanding for the non- linquist like me.

Maybe I will have some questions for you latter on a few of these Hebrew words after I release my burden to expound more on verses about Satan's origin.

I will re-read your post again at that time.