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Originally posted by RJHindsno, you definitely dont seem to be grasping the issue being discussed. i am asking about the origin of thoughts, which part of our being creates thoughts and what determines which thoughts are created. free will only comes into play once we have several thoughts to choose from. so as you can see its definitely you who missed the point.
Perhaps it is you and robbie carrobie that has missed the point.
The Instructor
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Originally posted by stellspalfieMaybe you could explain how knowing or not knowing what mechanism creates this or that thought, renders invalid the history of Satan. I am happy just to understand that minds produce thoughts, for this discussion's purpose.
no, you definitely dont seem to be grasping the issue being discussed. i am asking about the origin of thoughts, which part of our being creates thoughts and what determines which thoughts are created. free will only comes into play once we have several thoughts to choose from. so as you can see its definitely you who missed the point.
Are you hoping that some unanswered psychological question on the workings of the minds of creatures will assure you that what the Bible says about Satan's beginnings cannot be true ?
If that is not the case then maybe you should start another thread on the hows and whys of all created minds, and what makes them work.
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Some unbelievers seem to have a concept "With biblical concepts if you cannot explain everything then you cannot explain anything."
Minds produce thoughts. We do not know too much about how our own minds do this.
Things like evolution are taken without demand that the origin of life or the process must be explained first. A double standard is in play for some skeptics when they come to the Christian faith. If you cannot explain how free will and thoughts work together then they have license to dismiss the bible's explanation of the first sinning being.
This is a double standard at work
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Originally posted by RJHindsWhen you say it sounds like "mumbo jumbo" I think it sounds to me like you don't really have successful arguments against it. Its a lazy and dismissive.
To me this sounds like some more evilution mumbo jumbo. We become defeated when we jump on the evilution band wagon that calls for millions of years of sin and death instead of what the Holy Bible clearly teaches us. Don't be deceived by those false teachers.
The Instructor
Maybe you don't want to go through the same debates again which I can understand. But saying its "mumbo jumbo" is name calling and not impressive argumentation.
I notice that many YEC brothers cannot talk about the Bible's statements without immediately bringing up dust on the moon, carbon dating errors, changes in the speed of light, dinosaur and human footprints, etc. etc. and other extra biblical pop creationist science themes.
You'll notice that I have stuck firstly with the Bible's statements. I think it is what is written in Scripture that the Christian should first fully come to terms with.
Your "mumbo jumbo" dismissal may mean you don't see lots of accompanying popular YEC science talk used to prove that the bible is inspired by God.
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Originally posted by sonshipgood question. firstly id like to clarify that proving there is a logic problem with one aspect of what the bible says about satan doesnt prove the whole bible wrong, it doesnt bring your religion crashing down. all it proves to me is that there are errors within the bible, which shows that it has probably been tampered with and changed by the hands of man over time.
Maybe you could explain how knowing or not knowing what mechanism creates this or that thought, renders invalid the history of Satan. I am happy just to understand that minds produce thoughts, for this discussion\'s purpose.
Are you hoping that some unanswered psychological question on the workings of the minds of creatures will assure you that what the ...[text shortened]... should start another thread on the hows and whys of all created minds, and what makes them work.
right so we are going with the brain (for arguments sake). i believe that thoughts are created in response to outside stimulus and the shape and chemical make up of the body and brain. so our personalities become a reflection of the world around us as we grow and our genetic make-up.
so satan is created perfect. for him to start having negative thoughts he must experience negative behavior that influences him. if not the only other way is to have genetic problems or a chemical imbalance, but as he was created perfect this is impossible.
so to my mind this causes an impossible situation. there is no logical reason that a being that neither experiences evil or has a physiological predisposition for evil becomes evil.
the only rational explanation i can think of is that a human hand has edited the bible.
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Originally posted by sonshipno, im happy for christians to admit they cannot explain everything. i prefer that to some of the crazy explanations that the likes of rj come out with. i dont think not proving one thing proves the whole thing is wrong.
Some unbelievers seem to have a concept \"With biblical concepts if you cannot explain everything then you cannot explain anything.\"
Minds produce thoughts. We do not know too much about how our own minds do this.
Things like evolution are taken without demand that the origin of life or the process must be explained first. A double standard is i ...[text shortened]... miss the bible\'s explanation of the first sinning being.
This is a double standard at work
im not sure i agree about the double standards. to my mind the bible is full of logical errors that cannot be explained. evolution is explained from start to finish and is perfectly logical. the gaps in evolution are filled with logical answers. the gaps in the bible are filled with lazy explanations (like 'free will did it!!"😉 or 'i dont knows'. the two cannot be compared.
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Originally posted by stellspalfie
good question. firstly id like to clarify that proving there is a logic problem with one aspect of what the bible says about satan doesnt prove the whole bible wrong, it doesnt bring your religion crashing down. all it proves to me is that there are errors within the bible, which shows that it has probably been tampered with and changed by the hands of ...[text shortened]... l.
the only rational explanation i can think of is that a human hand has edited the bible.
good question. firstly id like to clarify that proving there is a logic problem with one aspect of what the bible says about satan doesnt prove the whole bible wrong, it doesnt bring your religion crashing down. all it proves to me is that there are errors within the bible, which shows that it has probably been tampered with and changed by the hands of man over time.
It doesn't prove that necessarily at all. I could be also show that we don't know enough about it all yet and therefore think there are logical problems.
The charge of tampering is often a projected mistrust that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. How about God is trying to communicate to man exactly where the real deception is coming from.
We have the integrity of Jesus Christ to assure us that His only absolute commitment is not in gaining some deceptive advantage over us but in doing the will of His Father. Liars usually have something in it for themselves. The death of Jesus is total absolute obedience to His Father evidences that He wanted nothing for Himself. Rather He wanted everything for His Father.
This objection wants to morph into a discussion of textural criticism - whether what we have as the Bible was transmitted down for the most part accurately.
right so we are going with the brain (for arguments sake). i believe that thoughts are created in response to outside stimulus and the shape and chemical make up of the body and brain. so our personalities become a reflection of the world around us as we grow and our genetic make-up.
Do you think all that leaves no remaining questions ? It leaves plenty more questions.
And the make up of a spiritual being like an archangel is unfamiliar to us. Though God knows that the exact make up of a angel unknown to us, all is not lost. God in His wisdom can use human language to communicate in word pictures essential truth about these matters.
I believe that though there are realms of creation which are way outside of our immediate comprehension, the Creator can nevertheless use human language to convey truth to us. Such truth may not exhaustively explain all things which maybe lay outside our human familiarity. But we can trust our Creator to convey in terms that we understand, essential truths.
so satan is created perfect.
As I wrote before, he was perfect in his ways ... until unrighteousness was found in him. I may not be able to philosophically explain how this change could occur. I think God has told us what we need to know.
Not everyone objects - "But a perfect being should not have gone wrong." How do we know that for sure ? Maybe that is the prerogative of a sentient created life on the highest level. He can withdraw from the will of God is he wants to.
Some argue that all beings created by God should be robotic - God simply pushes the control button and they love, serve, obey their Creator from automatic program. It makes sense that God would derive more pleasure from creations that love Him out of their willingness rather than because of an automatic program which permits no other attitude.
Then others may say "Well, if this being went wrong it is the fault of God somehow, way back there somewhere."
I don't know. But I think I know that in incarnation and bearing the sins of the world God seems to in some way stepped forward to bear the complete burden of responsibility for the wrong going of His creatures. As much as it is possible for us to comprehend He has shown us that He - God, laid down all that He is in order to save us from ourselves.
And I already suggested that no judgment upon Satan and his opposition party was without some time offered them to repent and come back under the government of their Creator.
In short - whether creations went wrong purely for their fault or purely for their Creator's fault, at least I see a redemptive act virtually assuming the full weight of guilt that we be saved from ourselves.
for him to start having negative thoughts he must experience negative behavior that influences him.
He took a way other than the way of God. Any other way leads to moral decay, death, rottenness and destruction.
There is the way of God the Most High Governor of all being. And there is the "other way" which is not anything but a withdrawal from truth, light and life.
Satan didn't just decide to do bad things. He decided that there must be his own way, another way to be, in competition to the Source of all blessing and being.
if not the only other way is to have genetic problems or a chemical imbalance, but as he was created perfect this is impossible.
I cannot explain the chemistry of the mind of an archangel.
But if we talk about human beings, we see in Genesis a line in the sand, so to speak. God said in essence "Here is a line. If you stay on this side of the line everything will be Okay. If you cross over this line and step on the other side, you will die. "
The specific line was the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As long as man did not eat of that tree he was still under the blessing of God. Eating of it was crossing the line. That action was the crossing of the line.
Whatever else went on in Adam's mind, will, emotions, thought life was okay with God as long as Adam did not cross the forbidden line and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And I have come to believe that many thinking people mistake simplicity of this account for naivete of the author. I am persuaded that God set up this initial test in a manner that millions of humans could understand essential cosmic truths.
Yes, at first reading it seems like a comic book. I think the simplicity of how God arranged this test reflects His wisdom as opposed to some imaginative superstition's naivete.
so to my mind this causes an impossible situation. there is no logical reason that a being that neither experiences evil or has a physiological predisposition for evil becomes evil.
In the mean time I am certain that Romans chapter 7 is largely your own personal story as it is mine. We sense something dragging us down. We love the good. We want to do the good. Somehow we too often lack the power to do the good. Rather the evil that we hate, this we do.
Sin there is personified - taking advantage, deceiving, seizing opportunity, leading to much inward frustration. Something living like has a parasitic relationship with all men. Something like a parasite has attached itself to our being.
It is more than profound. But I think the Bible is explaining in words we can comprehend both the objective existence of this being as well as the subjective impact this being has upon sinners. And we see who it was who as a man completely overcame him - this force - for our sake - Jesus the Son of God.
the only rational explanation i can think of is that a human hand has edited the bible.
It is known that both Old Testament and New Testament were copied again and again. It is known by those who pay meticulous attention to variants in these copies, that hallmarks of human editing or mistakes are detectable.
It is also known few of the hundreds of thousands of evidences of human copying rise above trivialities. Few effect major tenets of the Christian faith.
You are not going to find a very old copy which instead of reading "I am the way the truth and the life" reads in the original "Hey Peter, could you pass me another piece of fish?"
Hunting for a more agreeable manuscript of the Bible's books conveying major skeptical concepts of agnosticism is a fool's errand. I think it is better to go to God in prayer and just honestly admit that you don't like this or that idea. I still do this on occasion.
Stop waiting for an old manuscript which "un-Gods" and "un-Christs" the Bible like Thomas Jefferson's attempt to cut out of Scripture everything HE thought shouldn't be there.
Originally posted by sonshipThomas Jefferson did that? ouch, he was a spiritual buffet king, so sad.
[quote] good question. firstly id like to clarify that proving there is a logic problem with one aspect of what the bible says about satan doesnt prove the whole bible wrong, it doesnt bring your religion crashing down. all it proves to me is that there are errors within the bible, which shows that it has probably been tampered with and changed by the hands ...[text shortened]... ike Thomas Jefferson\'s attempt to cut out of Scripture everything HE thought shouldn\'t be there.
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Originally posted by stellspalfieGod determines what is good and evil. Satan must have been made aware of this as the highest creation of God. We are not told how Satan's thoughts of being like God and replacing God came about. Perhaps it was like a mutation occurs in our DNA and Satan became overcome by this strong desire to replace God. We can only speculate. So there is no need to concentrate on something we can not know.
no, you definitely dont seem to be grasping the issue being discussed. i am asking about the origin of thoughts, which part of our being creates thoughts and what determines which thoughts are created. free will only comes into play once we have several thoughts to choose from. so as you can see its definitely you who missed the point.
The Instructor
Originally posted by sonshipNo, you have not stuck with what is clearly written in the Holy Bible. You are ad-libbing mumbo jumbo information that is not written there in the text.
When you say it sounds like \"mumbo jumbo\" I think it sounds to me like you don\'t really have successful arguments against it. Its a lazy and dismissive.
Maybe you don\'t want to go through the same debates again which I can understand. But saying its \"mumbo jumbo\" is name calling and not impressive argumentation.
I notice that many YEC brothers cannot ...[text shortened]... e lots of accompanying popular YEC science talk used to prove that the bible is inspired by God.
I may be lazy and dismissive, but as you have said I have already went through this discussion with you before and you were not impressed with that argument either. So I have nothing more to impress you with if you will not listen to logic and reason.
I am calling it "mumbo jumbo" in an attempt to warn others of this false teachings and in the hopes that you will come to your Christian senses and stop trying to spread this false teaching that only supports Satan's work of deceiving people into believing in evilution.
The Instructor
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Originally posted by stellspalfieYou are the one with the crazy defense of the crazy and false teaching of evilution that has more gaps and holes in it than swiss cheese. The logical answers that supposedly fill the gaps have yet to fill any of the gaps and holes in the theory, in fact, there are even more holes in the theory than at the beginning of this Satanic theory. Any knowledgeable and reasonable person should have abandoned this theory as plain stupid by now.
no, im happy for christians to admit they cannot explain everything. i prefer that to some of the crazy explanations that the likes of rj come out with. i dont think not proving one thing proves the whole thing is wrong.
im not sure i agree about the double standards. to my mind the bible is full of logical errors that cannot be explained. evolution ...[text shortened]... lazy explanations (like \'free will did it!!\"😉 or \'i dont knows\'. the two cannot be compared.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsSince we do not know what we cannot know.
So there is no need to concentrate on something we can not know.
The Instructor
How can we possibly choose not to concentrate on it?
Unless we decide not to think about anything (just in case the solution is unknowable)
This last option is IGNORANCE
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uote]uote]Originally posted by RJHinds
No, you have not stuck with what is clearly written in the Holy Bible. You are ad-libbing mumbo jumbo information that is not written there in the text.
I may be lazy and dismissive, but as you have said I have already went through this discussion with you before and you were not impressed with that argument either. So I have nothing more to i ...[text shortened]... t only supports Satan\'s work of deceiving people into believing in evilution.
The Instructor
No, you have not stuck with what is clearly written in the Holy Bible.
Please quote the statement that you say has not stuck with what is in the Holy Bible.
Perhaps something is not clear to you.
You are ad-libbing mumbo jumbo information that is not written there in the text.
The Bible is not clear to you in some area so you judge proper exegesis as ad-libbing.
I may be lazy and dismissive, but as you have said I have already went through this discussion with you before and you were not impressed with that argument either.
My comment about your laziness may have been too harsh.
As for your arguments, all I feel to do is show you why what is a problem to you may not be a problem to me.
But my "laziness" flame was probably in reaction to your "mumbo jumbo" flame.
And I would like to read on and comment further but I have to suspend for a couple of hours.
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Originally posted by sonshipYou wrote the following about Genesis 1:No, you have not stuck with what is clearly written in the Holy Bible.
Please quote the statement that you say has not stuck with what is in the Holy Bible.
Perhaps something is not clear to you.
You are ad-libbing mumbo jumbo information that is not written there in the text.
The Bible is not clear to you ...[text shortened]...
And I would like to read on and comment further but I have to suspend for a couple of hours.
"In this thread I will propose that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2 which caused the earth to become waste and empty. How long the original creation continued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown."
This is untrue. We are told exactly how long the earth remained unfinished and empty in the following verses and everything was finished by the beginning of the 7th day.
You are ad-libbing by trying to assume a gap of unknown time between verses 1 and 2 that may have been billions of years to statisfy your evilution friends. It simply is not there. The text tells that this entire creation of the physical universe, including the earth and mankind, took six days and that then the creator rested from that work on the final day of that week. Even the atheist can see that. There is no missing time gap there.
The Instructor