Originally posted by stellspalfieHow could Lucifer go from being good to evil without free will?
if you use 'free will' as an explanation for evil then you need to be able to explain why and how it works. other wise you are just inventing a dues ex machina.
lets look at the 'facts'. satan is created perfect. so he has a perfect soul and a perfect brain. yet when he makes decisions he makes evil ones????? why? this makes no sense what so ever. f ...[text shortened]... st saying 'free will' did it but not being able to explain how and why is a total cop-out.
Free will is the capacity to do what you want to do, regardless of what anyone else (or your creator) wants you to do. It even allows you to do what you want to do regardless of circumstances... like ignoring instinct that tells you to run away from a fire instead of towards it. For me this isn't so much a question of what free will is, or what can happen when there are creatures who are able to choose what they will or will not do. The question in my mind has always been why were we given this ability? Why do we have free will? What purpose does it serve?
In a way, we have been honored because we are allowed to become masters of our own destiny. On the other hand, if we ignore the responsibility that goes along with having this power over ourselves then we risk becoming victims of our own actions. And there are a variety ways of trying to avoid this responsibility. One is to deny the existence of a creator who will hold us accountable. Another is to believe in a God who gives everyone a free pass, regardless of any evil they may be responsible for. Or re-incarnation, where if you goof up you just hit the reset button and try again.
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In the new heaven and new earth there is no more sea.
Now in Genesis 1 when the sea and the atmosphere were mentioned, something else was curiously absent. It was the pronouncement that God saw that it was good.
Compare each day.
Day # 1 - "God saw that the light was good" (v.4)
Day # 2 - Silence about the upper atmosphere or the waters being good.
Day # 3 - "God saw that it was good" (v.10)
Day # 4 - "God saw that it was good" (v.18)
Day # 5 - "God saw that it was good" (v.21)
Day # 6 - "God saw that it was good" (v.25)
Day # 7 - "God saw everything ... it was very good" (v.31)
Only on the second day we see no proclamation that it was good. I believe that the omission of "good" related to the waters is that the dead beings' disembodied spirits - the demons, are in the sea. And the bad angels that followed Satan are in the air.
The last of the seven bowls of the wrath of God is poured out into the air (Rev.16:17). And the sea is abolished, no more, in the new heaven and earth (Rev.21:1).
From a pre-Adamic age of which we know little about, the angels that followed Satan still remained. And the demons as disembodied spirits from some life forms were still assigned to remain in the sea.
These disembodied spirits seek to gain bodies by demon possession. They cannot tolerate having lost theirs. And the Lord Jesus said that they wander about in "waterless places" (Matt. 12:43) seeking sinful human victims whose bodies they invade.
They may even settle for dwelling in animals such as pigs. And to escape the wrath of the Son of God they seemed to have caused the demon possessed pigs to run in terror of escape down into the water (Matt. 8:32). Their place of confinement must be in the water, ie. in the sea.
The sea gives up its dead in Revelation 20 in addition to Hades giving up its dead. But all dead humans go to Hades. So those who drown at sea should be among those in Hades. The fact that the sea is separately mentioned as giving up its dead and the fact that the sea is no more, may mean that it is a left of remnant of the pre-Adamic age.
God removes all trace of the holding place of dead people and the holding place of dead pre-Adamic beings.
"And the DEAD were judged ... And the sea gave up the DEAD which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each [of them], according to their works." (See Rev. 12,13)
1.) Death and Hades as a repository for dead human beings is done away -
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire ..." (v.14)
2.) The sea as a possible repository for dead pre-Adamic spirits is abolished as well, being no longer needed -
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea is no more." (21:1)
Originally posted by sonshipThen God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
In the new heaven and new earth there is no more sea.
Now in Genesis 1 when the sea and the atmosphere were mentioned, something else was curiously absent. It was the pronouncement that God saw that it was good.
Compare each day.
Day # 1 - [b]"God saw that the light was good" (v.4)
Day # 2 - Silence about the upper atmosphere or th ...[text shortened]... and the first earth had passed away, and the sea is no more." (21:1) [/b][/b]
(Genesis 1:31 NKJV)
I think God considered EVERYTHING that He made as good. I do not believe God made anything bad. Even Lucifer was made good and became bad. There is no life on the earth without water, so it is obvious that water was made good.
Demon possession of human bodies does not mean that God made the bodies bad. The fact that Satan and His angels were in the spiritual heaven where God's resides on His throne and served by His angels does not mean God made His heavenly kingdom bad. The air we breathe was not made bad either. This idea of yours seems like nonsense to me. I do not agree with any of it.
The Instructor
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Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Yes, Genesis 1:34 does say that " ... God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good." So I believe this and would not disregard it.
However, we do have this conspicuous absence of a positive statement which occurs on every single other day except the second day. And we do have the elimination of the sea in the new heaven and new earth.
Evidently, the "very good" is good [edited] for the purpose it serves in this age. It is not retained in the coming eternal age - "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away; and the sea is no more."
The sea is functionally good in this present age for some things. As good as it is it is not needed by God when it is "no more" . By careful reading we sea the demons have some relationship with the sea.
There were the fallen angels hovering in the upper firmament even on Day 2. And there were the demons left from the previously judged world in the sea on Day 2 as well. They both had been dethroned, judged, deprived of their former world - yet not yet fully executed.
The executioner was being created - man. This was all "very good".
(Genesis 1:31 NKJV)
I think God considered EVERYTHING that He made as good. I do not believe God made anything bad. Even Lucifer was made good and became bad. There is no life on the earth without water, so it is obvious that water was made good.
Lucifer made himself bad in the age before the world prepared for Adam. And he was still a left over - judged by God but not yet fully executed.
The same is true of the fallen angels and the demons.
I know that you think demons are fallen angels and you know we have debated that before. I think we do not realize how extensive was the realm of Lucifer's realm. And it included other subjects besides angels who followed him in rebellion.
These were all hovering over the earth or in the sea, sullen, filled with hatred towards God who deprived them of their kingdom. They awaited to see what God was doing now, eager for an opportunity to mess up God's plans.
The being to now arrive on the scene was a brand new creation - man. And with the cooperation of this new creature the judged subjects would be executed. In other words God would not completely execute the rebels unilaterally Himself alone. God would bring more glory to Himself and more example to the rest of creation by replacing these rebels with a new being - man who would harmonize with the will of God to finally execute the judged rebels.
Demon possession of human bodies does not mean that God made the bodies bad.
The bodies that we have now are in some way transmuted and damaged bodies ever since sin and death entered into our world. This damage of man's body is sometimes referred to as the flesh.
"For I know that in me, that is, my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not." (Romans 7:18)
"No good thing", Paul says, dwells in his flesh. This must be the fallen body which was damaged and transmuted into something of a conquered battle ground held by Satan.
I do not understand all the physics of this. And I do not mean our bodies are completely bad. But what we became after the sin of Adam is in some way a corruption of what we were intended to be - not only in the realm of the spirit and soul but in the body as well.
In the history of the decline of man God says "the end of all flesh" had come before Him (Genesis 6:13).
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence ... I am about to destroy them with the earth" .
The implication is a downward decline coming to a terrible climax - "the end of all flesh".
The fact that Satan and His angels were in the spiritual heaven where God's resides on His throne and served by His angels does not mean God made His heavenly kingdom bad.
I agree that nothing Satan, his angels and the demons did, made His creation bad. But God in the end totally burns up the creation with intense heat to wipe out something of the defilement of the creation from the very presence of sin.
"Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away ... But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (Second Peter 3:12,13)
Peter says all these things will be "dissolved" (v.10)
"The day of the Lord ... the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up ... all these things are to be thus dissolved." (v.11)
This is some kind of cleansing of the whole environment from the very memory of Satan's and man's rebellion. So we could say "Satan's doesn't make what God created bad" on one hand. But on the other God sees to totally renovate the creation by intense burning of the very scene and stage of the rebel's history.
Now the silence of the proclamation "it was good" is not concerning the heaven of heavens but the upper firmament -
"And God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let is separate the waters from the waters. And God made the expanse and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse, and it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day." (Gen 1:6-8)
The upper expanse I take to mean the upper atmosphere and not the third heaven where the majestic glory of God and His throne are. And there is a conspicuous absence of the otherwise daily mention "And God saw that it was good".
The air we breathe was not made bad either. This idea of yours seems like nonsense to me. I do not agree with any of it.
Of course the air is good to breath. And the sea is good for fishing.
And the bugs, ugly insects, and many things in creation are good to teach us good lessons. So I think you should try to understand before you dismiss as nonsense.
Originally posted by sonshipWell, at least we agree on a few things.Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Yes, Genesis 1:34 does say that [b]" ... God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good." So I believe this and would not disregard it.
However, we do have this conspicuous absen ...[text shortened]... uld try to understand before you dismiss as nonsense.[/b]
The Instructor
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Originally posted by RJHindsI think your concern is that there must not be anything not good before God says all He made was very good. I see that as the problem of some people. They ask - "But if on the sixth day God looked over all He made and saw that it was very good, how can you believe anything not good existed before then ?"
Well, at least we agree on a few things.
The Instructor
What needs to be realized is that the major factor of all being "very good" is that it is under the dominion of a new being - man. God placed all things under man's deputy authority. That is what was the main factor of all creation being, indeed, very good.
As long as man is one with God it would remain very good. The very not good commenced when Adam relinquished that dominion into the hands of Satan.
Left over demons and left over bad angels waiting to be executed, were to be guarded against and held dominion over by the new being - man.
Originally posted by sonshipYes, of course, that is my concern and belief.
I think your concern is that there must not be anything not good before God says all He made was [b]very good. I see that as the problem of some people. They ask - "But if on the sixth day God looked over all He made and saw that it was very good, how can you believe anything not good existed before then ?"
What needs to be realized is that ...[text shortened]... ed, were to be guarded against and held dominion over by the new being - man.[/b]
The Instructor
Originally posted by sonshipLacking belief that God is posting in the Bible makes this alternative unavailable to me. But clearly, you are right to suggest that the Bible is the best place to look for what the God of the Bible says, As Shakespeare's Hamlet is the best place to look for what Shakespeare's Hamlet says.
God is posting in the Bible. And I don't need to wait for God to join Red Hot Pawn to see that some people can only write trash.
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Originally posted by lemon limeHow could Lucifer go from being good to evil without free will?
How could Lucifer go from being good to evil [b]without free will?
Free will is the capacity to do what you want to do, regardless of what anyone else (or your creator) wants you to do. It even allows you to do what you want to do regardless of circumstances... like ignoring instinct that tells you to run away from a fire instead of towards ...[text shortened]... sible for. Or re-incarnation, where if you goof up you just hit the reset button and try again.[/b]
i think you are misunderstanding my point. im not questioning if free will exists or not. im happy for the purposes of the thread to accept freewill. what im attempting to find out is - why does satan make evil decisions? where are his evil decisions coming from? his brain? his soul? his nature? free will is just the conduit to apply our own decisions, but how do we reach those decisions, where do they come from?
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what im attempting to find out is - why does satan make evil decisions?
Some things have just originated in and with this being. We may not understand how.
What originated with this being ?
Lies and lying - John 8:44 - " ... there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out his own [possessions]; for he is a liar and the father of it."
Untruth and lies then originated with Satan. Do you want such a being as an authority over you ? I don't.
Murder originated with Satan - John 8:44 - " He [the Devil] was a murderer from the beginning ..." The first person we know murdered under the instigation of Satan was Abel.
His lies are designed to lure you into death. He is a liar and the original murderer.
This being seeks to keep man in the dark, in ignorance - Col. 1:13 - "[Christ] Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of he Son of His love."
Satan has a kingdom which is of spiritual darkness - "the authority of darkness".
Satan is an accuser. He is skillful accuser in two directions:
Based on his knowledge of God's rightness and of man's sinfulness, Satan accuses man before God. He actually appears before God blinded by his own sinfulness and accuses those whom God is saving -
Rev. 12:10 - " ... the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night."
Satan accuses God's people this way - "You are unrighteous to love them. They are so bad. How can you save them? Look how imperfect they are. Can't you see how bad they have been, doing this and that ? You are just playing favorites in an unrighteous way."
Many of the posts on this forum are the thoughts of this accuser poured into the minds of several skeptical posters. This is the blame, blame, blame. Often with an element of legitimacy. But we have an Attorney on our behalf - Jesus Christ the Righteous.
We see Satan accusing Job before God in the book of Job.
We see Satan accusing the priest Joshua in the book of Zechariah -
"Then He showed me Joshua the high preist standing before the Angel of Jehovah and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary." (Zech.3:1)
Many times Satan's accusations against God's people are based on some failure. He temps men to sin. Then he accuses them before God when they have sinned.
"And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Jehovah who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and was standing before the Angel." (vs.2,3)
You can see the "filthy garments" represent that Joshua had relinquished some ground in misbehavior upon which Satan had cause to accuse him. But God's redemption rescues the backslidden saint from accusation until he is perfected.
Satan accuses God to man also. This is the other activity we see as a result of the Devil pouring his thoughts into the minds of unbelievers and those weak in faith -
" And the serpent said to the women [Eve], You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:5)
Satan continuously seeks to portray God as the enemy of human beings. His slanders are designed to make us question God's word and God's heart. "Maybe God doesn't want the best for us. Maybe if we follow the accusing Satan we will reach our full potential and not be held back by a tyrannical despot."
I stop this post here.
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where are his evil decisions coming from? his brain? his soul? his nature?
This passage from Ezekiel impresses me that it is from within himself all these negative things originated -
"By the multitude of your iniquities in the unrighteousness of your trading you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I sent forth fire from your midst; it consumed you ..." (Ezek. 28:18a)
God sent forth "fire" from the midst of this sinning being. Out from his own being a nature evilly blossomed forth.
We are not sure what the "trading" refers to. But I have an idea that Satan promised the angels who followed him things. Perhaps Satan traded a lot in this way -
"You know God doesn't appreciate you. He is holding you back from your true potential. God is not fair to you. Now if you follow me, Satan, I'll see to it that you gain the position and respect you deserve."
I think that the Devil made many promises like this to secure allegiance from other angels lower in glory and rank than himself.
We can ascertain this by examining the rebellions of men in the bible. For example the rebellions of Korah and of Absalom.
He deceived one third of the angels in heaven. In the following symbolism of the dragon sweeping the stars from the sky with his tail, the tail may represent deception, lying -
" ... a great red dragon ... and his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he casts them to the earth." (See Rev. 12:3,4)
Satan by his false promises and false trading seeks to throw men behind him in allegiance just has he deceived who knows how many angelic beings.
Matthew 25 speaks of "the devil and his angels" . And he is also called the one who has deceived the whole inhabited earth -
" ... he who is called he Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."
No matter how smart you are without the help of God you cannot stand against the deception of the Devil. We have some very clever people posting here. They cannot withstand the deception of the Devil.
Jesus was the man who totally withstood the lies of Satan. Jesus is the Man who overcame Satan on our behalf. We can feed on His victory and be overcomers with Him.