1. Standard membersonship
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    This thread will be verbose, preachy, long winded and filled with Bible verses.
    My God is the man Jesus and I believe in the trinity.

    I probably will not defend against every complaint. Some I may take time to discuss why something brought up as a problem to someone else may not be a problem for me. That is all.

    Okay, here is the first post. Many dear Christians think that Genesis 1:1 is the subject of the first two chapters of Genesis. Many believe that the main teaching in Genesis 1 and 2 is a historical record of creation. They regard Genesis 1:1 as the subject -

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    But if verses 1 is the subject it is peculiar that verse 2 begins with the word "And".

    "And [or But] the earth became [or was] waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the face of the deep. " (v.2)

    "And" means that something is going on already, and then something else happens to follow it. "And" is a conjunction which combines two matters. One thing is going on and another thing begins and along. The second matter joins the first matter.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. AND the earth was waste and emptiness, nd darkness was on the surface of the deep." (1,2)

    In this post I emphasize that the grammar of the two verses show that verse 1 is not the subject, but part of the description. It describes the first event in a series. After God created the heavens and the earth something happened.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 15:531 edit
    The Concordant Version of Genesis translates Genesis 1:2 as - "Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant." This is the rendering of the word [b]"Yet" rather than "And". And it brings out that the earth became a chaos or mess - the earth became a chaos and vacant.

    Imagine building some apartments and no one lives in them but they remain vacant. The Recovery Version renders the two words - "waste and empty."

    In this thread I will propose that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2 which caused the earth to become waste and empty. How long the original creation continued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown.

    Attention in this thread will be not about how long a time passed from the time God created the heavens and the earth but what happened sometime during that time.

    In this unspecified interval some understand that the origin of Satan commenced. Now we must go outside of the book of Genesis but still within the Bible to consider facts revealed about Satan's origin.

    Satan was an angel created by God before He created the earth. My ground for believing this includes Job 38:4-7. In the book of Job, the Bible's oldest book, the angels of God are described as "the sons of God". This passage suggests that the angels, the sons of God, were already in existence when God laid the foundation of the earth, ie. created the earth-

    God is speaking with Job - "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth ? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who set its measurements - if you know ? Or who stretched the measuring line over it? Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7 RcV)

    This verse proves that God created the angels before He created the earth. In the next post I'll discuss Ezekiel 28 where we see that Satan was not merely one of the angels. Rather Satan by that time was the highest archangel, the head of all the angels.

    This is his positive beginning. The length of that time we do not know and cannot find out. But this highest of the angels was also among those angels who existed before God created the earth.

    We have to see something about his position in the universe prior to his rebellion and corruption.
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    16 Sep '13 15:553 edits
    Seems to me it makes a pretty big difference if it is 'AND' or 'BUT'.

    Or it is 'WAS' or 'BECAME'.

    "But the earth was waste" seems potentially entirely different to "And the earth became waste".
  4. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 16:052 edits
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    Seems to me it makes a pretty big difference if it is 'AND' or 'BUT'.

    Or it is 'WAS' or 'BECAME'.

    "But the earth was waste" seems potentially entirely different to "And the earth became waste".
    I think both renderings are admissible. Which is the better leads to some technical discussion I won't pursue now or am fully qualified to decide upon personally.

    But those who do read ancient Hebrew give rationals about that as well as the "became" as opposed to "was" in verse two.

    I think I will set some of that aside until I can paint a larger picture. For now it may suffice to say that non-Christians, non-scientific age readers of the Hebrew understood that previous worlds were created and destroyed. Some rabbis had this understanding prior to the emergence of geology as a science in the 19th century or theories of long ages demanded by evolution.

    In short a interpretation of a pre-Adamic age is an old understanding of Genesis held by some readers of the original Hebrew.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 16:263 edits
    Ezekiel 28 describes a supernatural person we call the Anointed Cherub. The whole chapter seems to be speaking of an official in the government of the ancient city of Tyre.

    It starts by speaking of the prince of Tyre. Then a section closes and another section begins speaking of the king of Tyre. What is spoken in the section addressing the king of Tyre is many instances is not appropriate to a human being. Someone super-human is the target of the lament for this king of Tyre.

    This lament is about the glorious high position of this angelic being before he became Satan. This lament speaks of his high position in the universe sometime before the earth was seen as waste and void.

    Verse 13 says "You were in Eden, the garden of God." When we check the details of this Edenic dwelling it appears not to be the same Eden in which Adam was placed. This Eden was in the heavens, "upon the holy mountain of God" (v.14).

    This being was created perfect in wisdom from the very first of his existence. No earthly king of Tyre or anywhere else has been created perfect in wisdom from the moment of his birth.

    "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created ..." (v.15a)

    From the time this being was created perfect in his ways he developed into something corrupt. The word "until" proves that some passage of time took place from his creation to his being found an evil and corrupt being.

    "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, UNTIL unrighteousness was found in you." (v.14)

    This being originated unrighteousness within himself. But he was not created that way. Rather in wisdom, humbleness, piety, and beauty he sprang into being perfect.

    That is why this section of the Bible is a "lamentation" because there is a tragic fall that led to Satan becoming what he is today from what he was originally created.

    "Son of man (meaning Ezekiel the prophet) take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, You were in Eden the garden of God." (v.12,13a)

    Satan started perfect in wisdom and beauty. Satan started the highest of the angelic beings which God created. And they were already in existence when God created the earth.
  6. Dublin Ireland
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    16 Sep '13 17:50
    I am not a religious person but I have a few questions for you.

    1. If your God, is all knowing and all seeing, why did he create Satan?

    2. Did he not make an error in creating him?

    3. When Satan rebelled, why did God cast him down to the earth?

    4. Didn't he realize that on earth Satan would corrupt man?

    5. With all of the universe that God created, why didn't he banish Satan to someplace else other than the earth?

    6. Why are we waiting so long for God to resolve this issue with Satan?

    7. You said Jesus is your God, but Jesus said he was not God.


    Jesus said you must worship God, not him, for he is your fellow servant.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 18:271 edit
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    I am not a religious person but I have a few questions for you.



    3. When Satan rebelled, why did God cast him down to the earth?



    6. Why are we waiting so long for God to resolve this issue with Satan?

    7. You said Jesus is your God, but Jesus said he was not God.


    Jesus said you must worship God, not him, for he is your fellow servant.
    1. If your God, is all knowing and all seeing, why did he create Satan?


    When God created this being he was good, wise, perfect in beauty and greatly celebrated by all other angels "on the day that you were created".

    When God created this being he was not Satan yet. But he was "full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" (Ezek. 28:12)

    God says of him - "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (v.15)

    Because of his free will he became what he is today - the antithesis of God, the nemesis of Christ.

    2. Did he not make an error in creating him?


    I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator. Though from one angle it seems like a mistake from another angle it appears very wise. God created one being who would act forever as a reservoir to sum up all rebellion. He became the ultimate leader of all other creatures who make the decision to revolt against God the Creator.

    The perfect Anointed Cherub with free will turned himself into Satan, this grand leader. All other creatures following his original lead are summed up under his corrupted authority. Unless they are saved they will share his miserable destiny.

    4. Didn't he realize that on earth Satan would corrupt man?


    I believe that God knew from eternity the potential of creating beings with free will.

    I will be gradually continuing the history of Satan's origin. And some of these issues may be made clear as I do that.


    5. With all of the universe that God created, why didn't he banish Satan to someplace else other than the earth?


    The earth was once under his deputy authority. His existence both caused the damage of the earth and the divine judgment upon the earth. For this cause the second verse in Genesis reads - "But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen. 1:2)

    This earth was restored, recovered, and a new being was created - man. God then put the earth under the deputy authority of this new being man.

    Man joined Satan's rebellion. Had man not joined Satan rebellion God would have utilized man to be the executioner of the judged Satan. Rather than God directly deal with the creature God created man, another creature, to co-harmonize with the will of God and serve as executioner of Satan.

    This will be explained more latter. But rather than view Satan as kicked out of heaven and sent to the earth we should understand that Satan's pre-adamic kingdom included the earth. Though it had been judged and taken away from him and given for another creature to rule, Satan wrested it out from that being - from man - from Adam and won man over to join Satan's ancient rebellion against the Creator.

    And of your weighty questions, that is all I will say for now. If you continue to read I believe you'll see more.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 18:413 edits
    Jesus said you must worship God, not him, for he is your fellow servant.


    Two places in the book of Revelation an angel exhorts John not to worship an angel but worship God. Neither of these two passages are the speaking of the Lord Jesus.

    1.) Revelation 19:10 - "And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. I am your fellow slave and [a fellow slave] of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. "

    I do not believe the speaker who serves as the one whose feet John fell before is Jesus but an angel.

    Hebrews 1:6 says that all the angels are to worship the Firstborn Son of God when God brings Him again into the inhabited earth -

    And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He [God] says "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

    2.) The second verse Revelation 22:8 - " ... And when I heard and saw, I fell to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. And he said to me, Do not do that! I am your fellow slave and [a fellow slave] of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God."

    Now I am going to try to go back to the subject of the OP.
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    16 Sep '13 19:021 edit
    " I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."


    blaming free will is a total cop-out. can you explain why free will makes some people do evil? what part of them is choosing evil over good? is it their brain or spirit? if its the spirit, then why is that persons spirit evil, was it born with an evil spirit? if its the brain, how did they end up with an evil brain?

    edit: did the being who was later to become satan exist before free will?
  10. Dublin Ireland
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    16 Sep '13 19:05
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    [b] " I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."


    blaming free will is a total cop-out. can you explain why free will makes some people do evil? what part of them is choosing evil over good? is it their brain or spirit? if its the spirit, the ...[text shortened]... th an evil brain?

    edit: did the being who was later to become satan exist before free will?[/b]
    This guy is another nut like R J Hinds.
    He won't give you a straight answer.
    He'll just quote passages from a book
    that was written by men, not by any God.

    The whole thread is spam.
  11. Joined
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    16 Sep '13 19:241 edit
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    This guy is another nut like R J Hinds.
    He won't give you a straight answer.
    He'll just quote passages from a book
    that was written by men, not by any God.

    The whole thread is spam.
    I didn't see him insult you and yet you feel the best way to express your supposed superior thinking is to throw one at him, when all he has done is give you an honest response to your question.
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    16 Sep '13 20:071 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    This thread will be verbose, preachy, long winded and filled with Bible verses.
    My God is the man Jesus and I believe in the trinity.

    I probably will not defend against every complaint. Some I may take time to discuss why something brought up as a problem to someone else may not be a problem for me. That is all.

    Okay, here is the first post. Man in a [b]series
    . After God created the heavens and the earth something happened.[/b]
    Pretty good stuff here, Jay. I won’t address all of it, or derail your presentation, but I want to make what I see as a small possible “correction”—the verb hayetah is in the perfect tense, indicating something that is an already completed action. “Was” is certainly acceptable (and probably the most oft-used translation) as long as that is understood. “Became” seems okay with that understanding as well—but “had become” would, I think, be better; and I don’t think that would affect your point at all. Following one translator of Torah that I use, I rendered it as “had been”—but, again, I see no problem with “had become”.

    I put “correction” in “____” because I think any of those translations are acceptable, as long as the perfect tense is understood (and Hebrew is flexible in that way). I will certainly add “became/had become” to my list of possible renderings—and you’re right about the rabbinical references (though I’ll just add, for others, that particular rabbinical interpretations are not binding).

    Note: Rank Outsider is also correct that ve can mean “but” as well as “and”—it can also mean “when”, and a few other conjunctions. Again, classical Hebrew is flexible that way. That is one reason why rabbinical exegesis values multiple possible interpretations.

    EDIT: Oh, I see that you already replied to Rank Outsider on that point.
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    16 Sep '13 20:15
    Originally posted by sonship
    "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, UNTIL unrighteousness was found in you." (v.14)
    Here it clearly says that he wasn't perfect, but "perfect in your ways". Combined with the fact that there was unrighteousness FOUND in him, it can only be concluded that god on purpose created a being with unrighteousness in him and then apparently hoped that it wouldn't come out.

    Since god is the creator of everything he's also the creator of unrighteousness itself.

    So god created unrighteousness, a being with that trait in him AND free will YET still gets pissed off when that combination - completely predictably - results in bad things.

    And if that weren't enough, people all over the world STILL get on their knees and worship this god.

    Eventhough the four year old child that died a horrible, painful death as a result of cancer did so because of god's "Let's-see-what-happens" attitude.

    Seriously, who needs Satan when you have god? How much worse could Satan possibly be??
  14. Standard membersonship
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    16 Sep '13 20:57
    Before I give more attention to arguing about free will I wish to share more about the Anointed Cherub and why he fell and became Satan.

    Ezekiel says "Every precious stone was your covering." The covering may indicate this beings dwelling place. This being had a dwelling place of precious stones.

    Now it cannot escape our notice that the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible is built with twelve kinds of precious gem stones. And there the gem stones stand for the transformed human beings who have been built together in love and in the divine life to be God's spiritual dwelling place. This is symbolism which I will not discuss in great detail right now.

    But my point is that what the saved become in some way replaces what the Anointed Cherub was in the ancient past. Otherwise, I think the mention of precious stones for both would not occur.

    "You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald, with gold." (Ezek. 28:13a)

    Compare this with the final holy city New Jerusalem after the consummation of God's full salvation.

    "The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: the first fundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius ... etc. ... the twelfth, amethyst." (Rev. 21:19,20)

    The main point here is that what God had in this original glorious creature God in some way obtains again in the human beings saved, regenerated, and transformed by Christ's salvation. Without going into many proofs, I just state that the precious stones adoring the wall of the New Jerusalem signify the saved sinners transformed by the Holy Spirit, glorified and conformed to the image of Christ.

    Satan was in a glorious dwelling place from the moment he was created. The precious stones of the New Jerusalem are the "living stones" built up a spiritual house as the Apostle Peter taught.

    This also explains Satan's utter hatred for man in general and for the Christian church specifically. The shame of Satan's fall from his past is surpassed by God's redemptive and transforming salvation.

    Satan is replaced and surpassed. The dusty man created by God to whom Satan sought to corrupt yields a remnant of saved ones by Christ's salvation. With Christ they become the deputy authority over God's creation expressing His eternal life and nature in a corporate city - temple New Jerusalem.

    Ezekiel goes on to say "The service of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared with you in the day you were created." (13b)

    This has something to do with celebration of musical instruments at the royalty of this being. In the ancient times, musical instruments such as tamborines and pipes were for kings. We see the celebration in conjunction with the pageantry kings in Daniel 3:5 and 6:18

    This indicates that Satan was king, holding the highest position in that universe. This is why Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31). And this is why the Apostle Paul called Satan "the ruler of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2)

    It is also confirmed that Satan was some kingly ruler in Luke 4:5-6 - "And he [the Devil] led Him up and howed Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a moment of time. And the Devil said to Him, To You I will give all this authority and their glory, because to me it has been delivered, and to whomever I want I give it."

    Was this a lie ? It must not have been a lie or else the Lord Jesus would have surely rebuked Satan. Jesus did not rebuke Satan for saying this. So there must be truth to Satan's boast. It was a fact that all the kingdoms of this world had been delivered into the hands of Satan.

    When did God deliver all the world kingdoms to Satan ? It was in a pre-Adamic age. In the universe before the creation of Adam the Anointed Cherub was a king over all the world that then was. Perhaps his sphere extended father out in the universe then we know.

    God did appoint this arch-angel to be the head of that universe, and all created things were delivered into his hand. So he had become "the ruler of the world."

    His position and rank were so high that another archangel, Michael (Dan. 10:13) "did not dare to bring a reviling judgment against him" (Jude 9) Michael, an archangel showed no insubordination to other archangels position. The higher position Michael respected. Jude 9 proves that Satan's rank must be even higher than the rank of Michael the archangel.

    We infer from this that Satan was the highest of the created angels.

    For some strange reason the bad use of a free will is philosophically problematic to some thinkers. I personally don't see a major problem. Satan is called the father of lies. Untruth originated with him. And whatever God is Satan decided he would be the opposite.

    God is light. Satan is darkness.
    God is divine life. Satan is a "god" of death.
    God is truth. Satan is a liar and the father of lies.

    He could not usurp God. He could not be original but only corrupt what has been come from God. His great wisdom and insight with which he was created was corrupted because he loved too much his own beauty -

    "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness." (v.17a)

    Cont. below
  15. Joined
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    16 Sep '13 21:013 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    1. If your God, is all knowing and all seeing, why did he create Satan?


    When God [b]created
    this being he was good, wise, perfect in beauty and greatly celebrated by all other angels "on the day that you were created".

    When God created this being he was not Satan yet. But he was "full of wisdom and perfect in hat is all I will say for now. If you continue to read I believe you'll see more.
    You say; "I think that God, who creates beings with free will, knew that it was a potentiality that some beings would want nothing to do with their Creator."

    also,

    " I believe that God knew from eternity the potential of creating beings with free will. "

    Respecting your adherence to Biblical sources in this thread, I ask two things:

    What are the Biblical sources for what you think, and believe, as stated in these two quotes, about God knowing the potential outcomes of the bestowal of free will?

    Second, what if any Biblical sources would limit God to knowing the potential of these outcomes, and not know the actuality of precisely which creatures would go to the evil side, and when, and how, they would do this? Did the bestowal of free will by God necessarily entail His ignorance as to the actual outcomes of the bestowal? Or did God choose to be ignorant of the actual outcomes of the bestowal?
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