3 edits
RJHinds
You wrote the following about Genesis 1:
"In this thread I will propose that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2 which caused the earth to become waste and empty. How long the original creation continued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown."
This is untrue. We are told exactly how long the earth remained unfinished and empty in the following verses and everything was finished by the beginning of the 7th day.
We are told in Exodus 20:11 that God took six days and made [ asah] the heaven and earth, and sea and all that is in them. Nowhere are we told God created the creation in six days.
If you believe as I do that the Holy Spirit selected the human words to convey God's message then it is significant that He never uttered that He created the creation in six days.
In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Hebrew Chaldee Dictionary I see these words to convey the meaning of asah - #6213 -
make, accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy,commit, deal with, have charge of, deck, do, dress, execute, fashion, finish, fulfill, fit, fly, bring (come) to pass, perform, practice, prepare, procure, provide, trim, work, yield ...
A few other words are used but create is not in the list. The thought of taking already existing material to work with is implied by synonymous words.
I interpret the use of the word in Exodus 20:11 to be God's revelation that in six days He took something already existing and worked with it, shaping, appointing, etc. to be the heavens and the earth that man is most familiar with. Six days of God working to appoint, to make the world.
The word in Genesis 1:1 for created could have been asah. the Holy Spirit had Moses write another word bara - # 1254. In the same dictionary the definitive words for it include -
create; cut down (a wood), dispatch, make (fat)
While I see some overlap, I notice that create is not listed in the previous case. And some scholars say no other Hebrew word could convey bringing into existence ex nihilo. You probably know the expression means bring into existence from nothing.
Scripture never says God brought into existence out of nothing (ex nihilo) bara the creation in six days.
You are ad-libbing by trying to assume a gap of unknown time between verses 1 and 2 that may have been billions of years to statisfy your evilution friends.
The charge of "ad-libbing" is in the eye of the beholder in this argument.
You go outside of Genesis chapters 1-3 to try to figure out unspecified information with other biblical statements elsewhere. For example, nothing in Genesis explains who the serpent is other than the fact he "was more crafty than any other animal of the field which Jehovah God had made." (3:1) . Since no explanation is provided you consult other portions of the Bible to get one. It must be the Devil.
When you do it it is good Bible Study. When some others do the same you charge them with "ad-libbing."
What am I doing that you are not doing ? I notice that Isaiah 45 tells us that God did not create the earth waste.
"For thus said Jehovah, Who created the heavens - He is the God, who formed the earth and made it; He established it; He did not create it waste." (Isa. 45:18)
When I consult other portions of the Bible to gather a fuller picture it is "ad-libbing". When you do the same it is OK.
Genesis 1:1 is not a contradiction to Isaiah 45:18 because Genesis 1:1 doesn't say that God created the earth waste. It says He created the heaven and the earth in the beginning. And it was waste as seen in verse 2.
When this and other statements are consulted to gather a fuller picture, you charge us with "ad-libbing." But I ask you - what am I doing that you are not also doing ?
It simply is not there. The text tells that this entire creation of the physical universe, including the earth and mankind, took six days and that then the creator rested from that work on the final day of that week. Even the atheist can see that. There is no missing time gap there.
If the Holy Spirit wanted to convey that out of nothing - ex nihilo God created the heaven and earth in six days He could have said that. I think it is significant that the word used in relation to the six days is asah - made, as with working on pre-existing things.
And that is what we see in Genesis 1. The dry land appeared - and let the dry land appear (v.9) . The land was not created on that third day. It was made to appear out from under the water as God made the heaven and earth during the six days.
So I stand by the OP's comment -
"In this thread I will propose that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2 which caused the earth to become waste and empty. How long the original creation continued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown."
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipSurely, Genesis 1:1-5 tells us that the heavens and earth was created on day one. That is one 24 hour day.
RJHinds
[quote] You wrote the following about Genesis 1:
"In this thread I will propose that something happened between verse 1 and verse 2 which caused the earth to become waste and empty. How long the original creation continued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown."
This is untrue. We are told exactly ...[text shortened]... ntinued before the earth was seen in a condition of waste and empty is a complete unknown." [/b]
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
(Genesis 1:1-5 NIV)
The following translation is better to get the true meaning of the Isaiah verse.
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."
(Isaiah 45:18 NIV)
The idea of God creating, making, fashioning, and forming are used together and sometimes interchangeably. I believe that "create" just emphasizes the "mental" aspect of bringing something new into existence without excluding the "making" aspect. So to say the heavens and earth were "made" by God does not excude the "creative" aspect of it. It is all inclusive. Don't forget that God "created" man also.
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:26-27 NIV)
Now as far as the ad-libbing goes, we do not have to assume that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was possessed or controlled by Satan the Devil, because later scripture tells us this. However, there is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
Surely, Genesis 1:1-5 tells us that the heavens and earth was created on day one. That is one 24 hour day.
[b]
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was lig ...[text shortened]... is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
Now as far as the ad-libbing goes, we do not have to assume that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was possessed or controlled by Satan the Devil, because later scripture tells us this. However, there is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
My time is very limited right now so only a brief response is given.
Yes we are told latter about the ancient serpent the Devil. And we are also told latter about an Eden where and Anointed Cherub was in a kingly, priestly position.
When it is understood that nothing in Genesis says anything about this tremendous person in the garden of Eden, the events are understood to refer to something probably prior to the serpentine enemy seen in the garden in Genesis.
If the charge of "ad-libbing" is made towards my interpretation of a previous Eden in Ezekiel 28 then you are just as much "ad-libbing" to get your explanation.
There's no reason to accept only those coming up with reactionary Young Earth analysis are not "ad-libbing."
Latter we can look at the made / create overlap. Genesis 1:26,27 has not escaped my notice.
5 edits
The idea of God creating, making, fashioning, and forming are used together and sometimes interchangeably. I believe that "create" just emphasizes the "mental" aspect of bringing something new into existence without excluding the "making" aspect. So to say the heavens and earth were "made" by God does not excude the "creative" aspect of it. It is all inclusive. Don't forget that God "created" man also.
I agree that creating does not exclude necessarily making.
That a human language word should exclusively have no other meaning except to bring into being from absolutely nothing is understandable. Man cannot do such a thing. Only God can do such a thing. So without revelation from God we can expect ex-nihilo creation ( an ability reserved for God alone ) had a human word for no other use. I would expect a word to be used which can be take on other meanings according to what human beings can do.
At the same time God could have said He created the heaven and earth in six days. While some regard this as coincidental or not relevant I regard it as purposeful. When then did CREATION of the universe occur ? "In the beginning" . And that is all we know for sure by direct revelation.
Created is used three times in Genesis 1 -
1.) The heavens and the earth in the beginning (v1).
2.) The great sea-creatures (v.23).
3.) Man in God's own image (v.27).
All three of these matters require the total introduction of something new ex-nihilo. The universe at the beginning of time, space, matter, and energy - calls for bara. Living creatures in the sea who have life only by direct act of God's power, require bara. And man, being an absolutely new life by the direct intervention of divine power, calls for bara.
These are the three instances in Genesis 1 where created is the word selected.
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:26-27 NIV)
As noticed the use of created and made, made and created seem to be interchangeable in Genesis 1:26,27. God said "Let us MAKE man ...". And the next verse says "And God CREATED man ..."
So some readers would regard this as proof that the two words asah and bara are completely interchangeable there.
However, the man has at least a material component and an non-material component. Man has a life which is CREATED ex-nihilo and man has a outward frame which we are told God formed ... from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7)
It is understandable that BOTH activities would go into the bringing about of man. His life element was CREATED and called into being from non-being. And His frame MADE from the pre-existing material of the dust of the earth.
That both words be employed in Genesis 1:26,27, therefore, does not prove that an absolute equivalence of bara and asah has to always be understood.
One of the meanings of asah is also appoint. So we could understand 1:26,27 to be God saying that He would appoint man in His own image and according to His own likeness and then He CREATED man in the image of God.
Many fine names of people in the OT carried the meaning of appointed, like Asahel - means appointed by El or appointed by God.
Anyway - man's total being - spirit and soul and body - the material and the immaterial necessitate that both ex-nihilo creation and fashioning or making from physical elements be appropriate to discribe how God brought man about.
God can CREATE the universe in some time which is not known to us and MAKE the heavens and the earth in six days.
Genesis 2:4 employs CREATED when speaking of the heavens and the earth. And employs made when the order is the earth and the heaven.
"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were CREATED. When Jehovah God MADE earth and heaven." (2:4)
In relation to the whole of space with the earth He CREATED - (Genesis 1:1). In relation to the earth with the heavens prepared around it He "MADE earth and heaven".
In relation to in the beginning He CREATED the heavens and the earth.
In relation to six days of Genesis 1 He MADE the earth and and heaven.
Both words are used in verse 3 when we read of "all His work which God had created and made." (2:3)
He created out of nothing in the beginning of time. He made in six days the heaven and earth and all that is in them in six days (Exodus. 20:11). I believe that between the two Satan's ancient history is exposed elsewhere in Ezekiel and Isaiah.
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsAnother look at this:
Surely, Genesis 1:1-5 tells us that the heavens and earth was created on day one. That is one 24 hour day.
[b]
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was lig ...[text shortened]... is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
Now as far as the ad-libbing goes, we do not have to assume that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was possessed or controlled by Satan the Devil, because later scripture tells us this. However, there is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
And by comparing the TWO conditions of this being we can see that something happened to him. There is a decline of some sort, a degradation.
The questions is when did this demotion, this degradation from glorious being Daystar and anointed cherub to serpent liar or possessed serpent perhaps happen ?
He started one way. He ends up another way - lower and in degradation.
There are two possible choices:
1.) He declined from his high position sometime before Adam was created.
2.) He declined from his high position during the early life of Adam.
I think the more likely interpretation is that he declined before the creation and arrival of Adam the first man on the earth.
What I think we see is a failed economy repealed and replaced by a new economy.
What I think is a more problematic view is of two economies of God going along simultaneously - God creates this anointed cherub as king and priest in heaven and at the same time creates man to have dominion over His creation.
I see a FIRED and REPLACED Satan.
I do not see TWO supreme deputy authorities set up simultaneously by God.
However, there is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
Where is the Scripture telling us 6,000 years ago from 2013 give or take a century God created the heavens and the earth ?
I always use the term "unspecified" in refering to the interval between verse 1 and 2. You are the one insisting that "billions" has to go there. I only say it is not known how long.
Originally posted by lemon limeGood answer on free will. I have always believed that God gave us free will to choose. He took a gamble that some would choose to love Him and some would go the other way.
How could Lucifer go from being good to evil [b]without free will?
Free will is the capacity to do what you want to do, regardless of what anyone else (or your creator) wants you to do. It even allows you to do what you want to do regardless of circumstances... like ignoring instinct that tells you to run away from a fire instead of towards ...[text shortened]... nsible for. Or re-incarnation, where if you goof up you just hit the reset button and try again.[/b]
It would be like having a spouse who was "programmed" to love me. She had no choice, no free will. Is this real love? I don't think so. I want a spouse who loves me by her own freedom of will for whatever reasons.
Originally posted by checkbaiterExactly. Ask any kid what's better, someone who is your friend because he has to be your friend, or because he wants to?
Good answer on free will. I have always believed that God gave us free will to choose. He took a gamble that some would choose to love Him and some would go the other way.
It would be like having a spouse who was "programmed" to love me. She had no choice, no free will. Is this real love? I don't think so. I want a spouse who loves me by her own freedom of will for whatever reasons.
It's nuts to complain about what can happen if someone decides he wants to have nothing to do with God, because he's setting himself up to be someplace where God will no longer be taking care of him. And it's not like people have not been forewarned, but even if someone one has no knowledge of God everyone still has a conscience... someone would have to be practically brain dead to not have an understanding of good and evil, so there can be no good excuse for screwing up when the time comes for ultimate accountability.
Originally posted by sonshipBut in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago? You were putting forth the idea that there was a civilization of people before Adam and Eve and that they were destroyed and the earth became waste and empty at that time.
Another look at this:
Now as far as the ad-libbing goes, we do not have to assume that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was possessed or controlled by Satan the Devil, because later scripture tells us this. However, there is no scripture that tells us that there was a gap of billions of years in the Genesis account.
And by comparing ...[text shortened]... You are the one insisting that "billions" has to go there. I only say it is not known how long.
You then speculated that the disembodied spirits of those people became demons. This was according to your previous view. And Satan ruled over that previous world, right?
So according to your view the six days did not start with the beginning according to verse one, but with verse two. God apparently made things new again in those six days and allowed Satan to remain there to tempt Eve and all the new people of this renewed creation.
I think the scriptue is clear that from the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth until every physical thing was made only six days took place. Of course you can believe what you want, but I still believe that "the gap theory" is a false teaching that is only intended to support the false teaching of evilution.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsRJ Hinds, the living anachronism, a person who would be happiest living 1000 years ago when religion had the power of life and death over just about everyone on the known planet.
But in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago? You were putting forth the idea that there was a civilization of people before Adam and Eve and that they were destroyed and the earth became waste and empty at that time.
You then speculated that the disembodied spirits of those peopl ...[text shortened]... lse teaching that is only intended to support the false teaching of evilution.
The Instructor
Living in a world of his own delusions thinking he is a wise person.
That is just another one of his delusions.
Wise people don't go around sprouting off about how wise he is.
Originally posted by RJHindsBut it does not support evolution, on the contrary it would explain the dinosaurs, as something Satan tampered with.
But in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago? You were putting forth the idea that there was a civilization of people before Adam and Eve and that they were destroyed and the earth became waste and empty at that time.
You then speculated that the disembodied spirits of those peopl ...[text shortened]... lse teaching that is only intended to support the false teaching of evilution.
The Instructor
Sonship has done a fabulous job in this thread. It is something I attempted to do in the past, but could not articulate as he has done. I agree with every bit of his post. Beware that you are not stuck on an opinion of man.
Originally posted by sonshipI feel the need to hand you over to Satan jaywill, for the destruction of the flesh, that you may come to your senses and repent.
[quote] The idea of God creating, making, fashioning, and forming are used together and sometimes interchangeably. I believe that "create" just emphasizes the "mental" aspect of bringing something new into existence without excluding the "making" aspect. So to say the heavens and earth were "made" by God does not excude the "creative" aspect of it. It is all ...[text shortened]... believe that between the two Satan's ancient history is exposed elsewhere in Ezekiel and Isaiah.
8 edits
But in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago?
That's right. It could have because in the Bible the length of time is unknown.
My main concern is not the length of time but to expose the arch enemy of God and His saints. That is the stripping of Satan naked to expose him to the light of Scripture as much as Scripture will allow.
You were putting forth the idea that there was a civilization of people before Adam and Eve and that they were destroyed and the earth became waste and empty at that time.
You are putting the words "people" in my mouth. The demons are the disembodied spirits of intelligent beings. I have never called them "people".
But whatever they were, they are now called "the dead" given up by the sea (Rev. 20:13). These beings are not to be confused with the "dead" people who are given up by death and Hades (v.13).
The dead in death and Hades to be judged at the great white throne are dead human beings. The dead given up by the sea are demons - disembodied intelligent beings under Satan's old government.
I do not know what these beings were. But since Adam was the first MAN - (1 Cor. 15:45) they were not men.
Maybe we do not want to know what they were.
Maybe we would have a hard time handling what they were.
Either way God has not revealed it to us.
But they were intelligent and they followed Satan.
You then speculated that the disembodied spirits of those people
Once again - you are trying to put the word "people" into my mouth.
They are disembodied spirits of beings of some sort.
Try to disagree if you must, without misrepresenting what I have written.
Demons were not human people. But whatever they were, they were intelligent.
became demons. This was according to your previous view. And Satan ruled over that previous world, right?
Satan deceived angels in a previous economy.
Satan deceived other beings then too who are disembodied spirits.
The two words used together (not necessarily separately) to describe the earth are used elsewhere to indicate divine overthrow by a judgement of God. As the note in Rotherham's Emphasized Bible says -
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep ..." (Emphasized Bible)
"Heb: tohu wa-vohu. Evidently an idiomatic phrase with a play on the sound ( "assonance" ). The two words occur together only in [Isaiah 34:11; Jeremiah 4:23] examples which favor the conclusion that here also they describe the result of previous overthrow."
[my bolding]
Critics of a Destruction / Reconstruction interpretation are quick to separate the words to prove that used separately they do not ALWAYS mean an overthrow by divine judgment. But we already conceded that. Continuing Rotherham's note:
Tohu by itself is found in several other texts (Deut. 32:10; Job 12:24; Ps. 107:40; Isa. 24:10; 34:11; etc.)
The objection that the words taken separately could just mean unformed, preformed and unprepared, not fully developed are valid for the other examples of separate usage of the words. The play on sound in Hebrew as they are used together is always with judgment in mind.
I am told by Dr. Donald Barnhouse that we could understand the sense of the sound with a similar expression - " topsy turvy. " " Helter-skelter " also comes to mind.
The earth was without form and void as a result of divine judgment.
So according to your view the six days did not start with the beginning according to verse one, but with verse two.
Let's look at a Young Earth view. It implies that God first created darkness. For there was darkness before He said "Let there be light" .
God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Do you think God first created darkness and afterwards light ?
You charge me with "ad-libbing". But you have an evening and a morning without the sun. You say God used some temporary light source until the sun was created on the fourth day. Doesn't that sound like "ad-libbing" to explain why there was a solar day before there was a solar light for the earth to rotate in ? Sounds a bit like ad-libbing to me that God fakes a rotation of the earth in the sun's light before He creates a sun.
Of course the sun is not created on the fourth day, strictly speaking. But the definite light holders are made. Probably the earth was already rotating within the solar light which was diffuse and indistinct to the seer. On the fourth day the Hebrew word means light holders and is a different word from what is used in the sentence - "And God said, Let there be light".
The first mention of "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (v.5), I don't think insists that twelve hours or so is all we must assume from the verse 1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" .
Latter in Scripture things reveal that a previous system was judged on account of which the earth was described as waste and void. The six days are of recovery YET ALSO some new creation. Man, for example, is for the first time brought into existence. The creation of human beings there is not a recovery or reconstruction.
Man is a new creation in Genesis 1:26,27. Previous beings on earth are a mystery to us.
Cont. below
Originally posted by sonshipfor excessive use of words!But in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago?
That's right. It could have because in the Bible the length of time is unknown.
My main concern is not the length of time but to expose the arch enemy of God and His saints. That is the stripping of Satan ...[text shortened]... new creation in Genesis 1:27,27. Previous beings on earth are a mystery to us.
Cont. below
3 edits
Cont. from above
So according to your view the six days did not start with the beginning according to verse one, but with verse two. God apparently made things new again in those six days and allowed Satan to remain there to tempt Eve and all the new people of this renewed creation.
All the days of Genesis 1 Satan, evil angels, and demons were sullenly hovering around looking on with great interest and great hatred of God and this new being - man.
They knew that what they had in the past had been destroyed. They knew they had been deprived of their world. Details of the world are a mystery to us.
They knew that man was the pinnacle of the creatures and was in God's image to exercise dominion over all things on behalf of God. This was a factor which they hated.
In the book The Glorious Church Watchman Nee expounds on Genesis 1:26 in a thoughtful way. The idea is as follows.
When man is assigned to have dominion over God's creation, the words are spoken in such a way as to imply that something extra and negative needs to be guarded against and had dominion over -
" And God said, Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Brother Nee's point is that the phrase "and over all the earth" really is the conclusion of all the positive things. For "all the earth" should conclude the matter.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=12FB
1.) over the fish of the sea ...
2.) over the birds of heaven ...
3.) over the cattle ...
4.) over all the earth ..."
Then after this conclusion of "all the earth" you seem to have an extra matter added on -
5.) "... and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth"
The fifth item seems to be an added on matter. "All the earth" should conclude the mandate. "All the earth" would sum up every matter and life form pertaining to the earth. The added on phrase after all the earth suggests something extra needs special attention -
"dominion ... and over all the earth AND ... over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Nee thought that the intentional construction of the phrase implies Satan's creeping things seeking to seize the planet from Adam. The serpent that deceived Eve is head of the creeping things.
Adam was mandated to express God's image and exercise God's dominion as a deputy authority. He was assigned dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of heaven, over the cattle, over all the earth - AND yes added - "and over every creeping thing which creeps upon the earth". Perhaps the implication is of negative creeping enemies of God and man.
Originally posted by sonshipBut in our past discussion on this subject, you said that this first verse could have taken place billions of years ago?
That's right. It could have because in the Bible the length of time is unknown.
My main concern is not the length of time but to expose the arch enemy of God and His saints. That is the stripping of Satan ...[text shortened]... new creation in Genesis 1:26,27. Previous beings on earth are a mystery to us.
Cont. below
But whatever they were, they are now called "the dead" given up by the sea (Rev. 20:13). These beings are not to be confused with the "dead" people who are given up by death and Hades (v.13).
The dead in death and Hades to be judged at the great white throne are dead human beings. The dead given up by the sea are demons - disembodied intelligent beings under Satan's old government.
I do not know what these beings were. But since Adam was the first MAN - (1 Cor. 15:45) they were not men.
Maybe we do not want to know what they were.
Maybe we would have a hard time handling what they were.
Either way God has not revealed it to us.
What you are referring to here may be the sons of God of Genesis 6. They are also called the dead instead of raphaim or nephalim, not sure of spelling. I am at work and do not have the resources I need here.
But I believe in Jude it speaks of these beings in chains until a certain time.
Perhaps these are the ones Satan releases in the book of Rev....