We can see that "Question Authority" originated with this being Lucifer. Satan is the original one who questioned authority. Satan was the first radical liberal questioning why he couldn't do anything he wanted the way he wanted it when he wanted to and how he wanted to do it - period.
Satan was also the first radical conservative - only caring for himself.
When Satan instigated Cain to murder Abel he put it into Cain's heart to make the excuse that he was not his brother's keeper. In other words, he is only responsible for his own personal benefit, damn the other guy.
"Then Jehovah said to Cain [the murderer] , Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper ?" (Gen. 4:9)
On one hand Satan was the first to question ANY restriction whatsoever on what he wanted to do. On the other hand Satan instigated man to think he had no responsibility to anyone else but only the self.
Satan was also the first to take God's word and twist it to personal advantage in an unrighteous way. We can see that what God had said about the prohibition of revenge against Cain (Gen. 4:14,15), was used by Lamech to warn everybody not to touch him too -
"And Lamech said to his wives, Adah and Zillah, listen to my voice; O wives of Lamech, hearken to my speech;
For I have slain a man for wounding me, Even a young man for striking me. If Cain is avenged sevenfold, Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold." (Gen. 4:23,24)
God had not allowed capital punishment before the flood of Noah. In a good sense this society was an anarchy. No revenge against Cain was to be sought for his murder of Abel. Human government was not yet instituted. Each human being was to be ruled only by his or her own conscience. This was a true pure libertarian society free from government.
But Satan pushed some over the side into an extreme. Lamech said that if God punishes anyone for hurting Cain God will do seventy-seven fold more to protect me - Lamech. Satan influenced Lamech to twist God's word in an unrighteous and self-serving way.
It was Satan influencing man in his thought life down this decline which lead to the whole earth being intolerably filled with evil and violence.
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Originally posted by sonship"Some things have just originated in and with this being. We may not understand how.what im attempting to find out is - why does satan make evil decisions?
Some things have just originated in and with this being. We may not understand how.
What originated with this being ?
Lies and lying - [b]John 8:44 - " ... there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out his own [possessions]; for he i ...[text shortened]... held back by a tyrannical despot."
I stop this post here.
how could they originate in his being if he was created perfect? unless there is another influence on the universe other than god.
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Originally posted by sonshipThis passage from Ezekiel impresses me that it is from within himself all these negative things originated -where are his evil decisions coming from? his brain? his soul? his nature?
This passage from Ezekiel impresses me that it is from within himself all these negative things originated -
[b]"By the multitude of your iniquities in the unrighteousness of your trading you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I sent forth fire from y ...[text shortened]... came Satan on our behalf. We can feed on His victory and be overcomers with Him.
okay, so how does a perfect being. meaning his design is flawless, start making evil decisions. something must be wrong to do that. so how did the flaw get there?
personally i think this smacks of a man made concept. its quite clearly a logical flaw. its not possible to be perfect and turn evil. im not saying that this proves much, other than the bible has human embellishments and is not 100% the word of god.
how could they originate in his being if he was created perfect? unless there is another influence on the universe other than god.
I probably cannot answer that. But let me ask you. Is there a requirement that I be able to answer that before I decide to put my trust in God ?
I could not answer all questions about my father when I was six years old. Even at eight or fourteen or even nineteen there were things about my father which I could not completely explain. But I learned that he loved me and that I could trust in him.
So you press me. "How could Satan turn out to be one opposing God ? Where came that idea ? God created him Lucifer the archangel. What was wrong with him that he ended up wrong ? Maybe it is the Designer's fault."
You run with that if you think that is better way to live. Not me. I think the track record is clear. God is the One Who I trust.
Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]This passage from Ezekiel impresses me that it is from within himself all these negative things originated -
okay, so how does a perfect being. meaning his design is flawless, start making evil decisions. something must be wrong to do that. so how did the flaw get there?
personally i think this smacks of a man made concept. its quite c ...[text shortened]... this proves much, other than the bible has human embellishments and is not 100% the word of god.[/b]
personally i think this smacks of a man made concept. its quite clearly a logical flaw. its not possible to be perfect and turn evil. im not saying that this proves much, other than the bible has human embellishments and is not 100% the word of god.
But Jesus took it seriously. And Jesus has credibility and weight.
Had Jesus Christ dismissed the matter, then I might agree that we are dealing with some kind of fiction. As it stands Jesus taking Satan seriously causes me to take Satan seriously also.
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Originally posted by sonshipno, there is no requirement for you to be able to answer the question.how could they originate in his being if he was created perfect? unless there is another influence on the universe other than god.
I probably cannot answer that. But let me ask you. Is there a requirement that I be able to answer that before I decide to put my trust in God ?
I could not answer all questions about my father when I wa ...[text shortened]... t is better a to live. Not me. I think the track record is clear. God is the One Who I trust.
personally i think the fact that evil exists is proof enough that either your god is not purely good or that your god is not omnipotent. either one of these being true shows that their are errors in the bible.....which then is proof that either god is not perfect or the bible is not the word of god.
you run with that if you think that is better a to live. Not me. I think the track record is clear. God is the One Who I trust.
i dont make decisions based on which i would prefer to believe or trust. i base it on the evidence and there are too many illogical errors in the bible for me to believe the bible is the word of god and if i dont believe the bible is the word of god then what reason is there to believe in a christian god.
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Originally posted by sonshipif you believe in your god because you prefer the idea that he exists to the idea he doesnt then i kinda respect that. what i cant respect is people trying to formulate illogical rj hinds style reasoning to try and prove their god exists. if you were to turn around and say 'i dont care if it makes sense or not, its what i want to believe' then there is no arguing with that.i dont make decisions based on which i would prefer to believe or trust.
I do. I think you do also.
We all, eventually will trust someone.
i already trust some people.
Originally posted by stellspalfieThe only clue we are given is that Satans first mistake was pride. He was proud of who he was, and took pride in himself and his abilities. The Bible doesn't give a lot of detail but I think there is enough to read between the lines. With Lucifer it started with pride, and after that it became a downhill slide until he was eventually tossed out of heaven. He still has access to heaven, but it's no longer his home. People get tossed out of clubs and bars all the time for being disruptive and bothering other patrons, so this is really not such a difficult concept to grasp. Lucifer decided for himself that he wasn't going to play by the rules and somehow believed he could prevail, and the rest is history.
[b]How could Lucifer go from being good to evil without free will?
i think you are misunderstanding my point. im not questioning if free will exists or not. im happy for the purposes of the thread to accept freewill. what im attempting to find out is - why does satan make evil decisions? where are his evil decisions coming from? his brain? his ...[text shortened]... onduit to apply our own decisions, but how do we reach those decisions, where do they come from?[/b]
What I meant by free will is the difference between something (a creation) that functions like a watch but has no self awareness, and a creature who does have self awareness and can make their own decisions. For example, with a simple mechanical watch all the parts will only move in the way they were designed to move... none of the parts are able to decide for themselves what they will or will not do. Obviously not everything that exists has free will, but apparently the angels do and so do we.
Originally posted by lemon limeI think stellspalfie has the same problem of pride. He thinks he knows more than the moran RJHinds and even thinks he is more knowledgeable than even the scholars of the Holy Bible and can see errors that they don't see.
The only clue we are given is that Satans first mistake was pride. He was proud of who he was, and took pride in himself and his abilities. The Bible doesn't give a lot of detail but I think there is enough to read between the lines. With Lucifer it started with pride, and after that it became a downhill slide until he was eventually tossed out of heaven. ...[text shortened]... bviously not everything that exists has free will, but apparently the angels do and so do we.
I know that for a moran like myself, I can seem pretty arrogant at times. But I have the Holy Bible to reference for my arrogance in belief in Christ and the truth of the Genesis account of creation in 6 literal days and a worldwide flood. I hope to be able to be confident and not be ashamed at His coming and I know I can't do that and deny what is clearly written in scripture.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
The wisdom with which Lucifer was endowed probably means that in addition to serving as priest and king he served as prophet also.
Probably in remote ages, he expounded to some then sinless earthly beings about God. These were not human beings. But they were intelligent creatures of some kind.
But now we must ask if the demons are disembodied spirits of those beings where is the physical evidence of their existence ?
I admit that there seems to be none we can find. But there may be several reasons for this.
1.) The nature of their bodies may include a kind of physiology foreign to our familiarity today. And no fossil trace of them exists.
2.) In the Old Testament God caused some of the rebellious people against Moses to be so totally swallowed by the earth that everything pertaining to them disappeared (Numbers 16:30).
3.) It could be that the trace of their civilization is under the deep mud of the ocean floor, so totally inaccessible. Perhaps rumors of Atlantis the lost continent are akin to such an ancient pre-Adamic civilization so totally vanished.
4.) It could be that they were not killed until the last moments instead of suffering long decay as the fossilization of other life forms indicate. The previous deaths of everything else may have served as a warning to them of what was to come to them. But it came suddenly and we have no vestige left of them.
5.) It may be that their bodies resolved into the primal elements, leaving the spirit naked, instead of the spirit departing and giving up the body to decay as with us.
6.) It may be that in judgment God changed their forms into indistinguishable masses of corruption as in Zechariah 14:12.. Or maybe God reduced them in a moment to ashes upon the earth as in Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3.
I feel that we are totally unacquainted with the conditions and economy of this pre-Adamic system. I think Adam was created latter in view of the complete failure of a previous system which ended after a period we cannot calculate.
Originally posted by sonshipTo me this sounds like some more evilution mumbo jumbo. We become defeated when we jump on the evilution band wagon that calls for millions of years of sin and death instead of what the Holy Bible clearly teaches us. Don't be deceived by those false teachers.
The wisdom with which Lucifer was endowed probably means that in addition to serving as priest and king he served as prophet also.
Probably in remote ages, he expounded to some then sinless earthly beings about God. These were not human beings. But they were intelligent creatures of some kind.
But now we must ask if the demons are disembodied spirit ...[text shortened]... iew of the complete failure of a previous system which ended after a period we cannot calculate.
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Originally posted by lemon limewhy did he have too much pride? what dictates his level of pride? was it the design of his brain? soul? something else?
The only clue we are given is that Satans first mistake was pride. He was proud of who he was, and took pride in himself and his abilities. The Bible doesn't give a lot of detail but I think there is enough to read between the lines. With Lucifer it started with pride, and after that it became a downhill slide until he was eventually tossed out of heaven. ...[text shortened]... bviously not everything that exists has free will, but apparently the angels do and so do we.
