An Old Earth History of Satan

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have already presented my understanding of Genesis and it is not an old earth viewpoint. I believe Lucifer, or Satan, was created in the spiritual heaven before time and the Genesis account of the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. Look it up.

The Instructor

Look it up my a$$.

Look what up?

The ramblings of a few nut cases who committed their
thoughts to paper thousands of years ago? What you and
he are asking to look up are writings which have no basis in fact.

You cannot prove there is a God and neither can he.

You are putting faith in that which is not there.
You will die a very disappointed man when you find
out that there is nothing there after all.

When you're gone, you're gone. Your final destination
will be six feet of earth, unless you are lost at sea or burned.

Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
Look it up my a$$.

Look what up?

The ramblings of a few nut cases who committed their
thoughts to paper thousands of years ago? What you and
he are asking to look up are writings which have no basis in fact.

You cannot prove there is a God and neither can he.

You are putting faith in that which is not there.
You will die a very di ...[text shortened]... ne. Your final destination
will be six feet of earth, unless you are lost at sea or burned.

I doubt that I will be as disappointed as you will be.

The Instructor

This is another cop out.

Again. Cop out from what ? A cop out from not knowing everything.

I do not know everything. But still God has revealed some things to man by means of the revelation in His word, the Bible.

When I was a child in the care, love and custody of my parents, there were some things I simply did not know. But I learned to trust them. Latter some things I understood better with maturity.

I also trust my Father in what He has revealed. Some things I expect to understand better with further spiritual growth and maturity.

What use has any God for precious stones?

What the precious stones are in Ezekiel is puzzling a little. However, that in the whole Bible precious stones signify transformed human beings is very meaningful.

1.) Peter means "stone". For Jesus to give Simon bar Jonah a new name meaning "stone" - "Peter", means that Jesus was going to transform Peter by His dynamic salvation.

Being born again is only the beginning. The Holy Spirit seeks to transform every saved person into a stone following Peter's example.

2.) The Apostle "stone" or Peter tells the disciples that they also are living stones just like he is -

"You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house ... " (1 Peter 2:5)

We who are saved are to be transformed through Christ's process of sanctification and built together in divine life and love into an "spiritual house".

Paul echoes the same thought, that the believers in Jesus are being built up into a living habitation of God in spirit -

" [Christ] In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21,22)

3.) Christ promises the overcoming Christian to be made a living pillar in the living temple of God which is the final New Jerusalem -

"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My Go, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (Rev. 3:12)

The stones are transformed people made holy and glorious in resurrection - sanctified unto God and to the New Jerusalem the city whose source is from God.

So while precious stones to the Anointed Cherub does have its mysterious factors, the symbolism of precious stones for the building up of the habitation of God in a corporate group of transformed saved humans, is quite evident.

Something within us knows that if we believe in the Lord Jesus we will be changed. We are fearful of this change and so resist coming to Christ. This fear is Satan induced. It is actually the fear of Satan himself that God would use you to achieve His eternal purpose.

The fear you have of being saved by the Lord Jesus is greatly induced into your mind by the Devil. It is his own future he is concerned about. God's accomplishing of His eternal purpose is the certain demise of Satan in the lake of fire.

Man and his greed for possessions would be the only
creature that gold and other precious stones would appeal to.
Not any God or any angel.

God, in His revelation, could use what is precious to man in order to convey what is precious to Himself. And that is sinners, saved, sanctified and transformed by His divine life - built up into a corporate dwelling place where God Almighty lives within man and man within God - the New Jerusalem .

God uses what is precious to men to convey what is precious in the eternal purpose of God.

Just goes to show that the book you quote from was written by men
and it inspires the greed and aspirations of men, not any God.

How the writing effects you before God is matter between you and God.

For many of us it causes us to realize that the saved human being is precious and that she or he is under the process of transformation -

This transformation work is being carried out by the Lord Spirit, Who is Jesus Christ in His indwelling and pneumatic form -

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

The Lord Spirit - Christ - indwelling the believers is carrying on the work of TRANSFORMATION from one degree of glory to the next, to the next, ... by successive degrees - from glory to glory into the same image as Jesus Christ.

Here again we see a passage about the saved ones being transformed in Christ's dynamic salvation -

"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2)

The more we allow Jesus Christ to renew our minds, transforming us from the mold of this evil age, the more we discover what the good and perfect and well pleasing plan of God is for our lives.

We sense that we are gradually becoming conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Why don't you see reason and stop putting faith in fairy tales?

I put faith in the word of God because before I was a believer I was TOTALLY in the dark. I had no clue why I was here in the universe. I was stumbling around in the darkness and very empty.

Upon giving my life to the Lord Jesus I was saved out of the kingdom of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of light. What is actually taking place in this universe is far more fantastic than any fairy tale.

God is mass producing sons and enlarging Christ into a "city" - the New Jerusalem.

Originally posted by JS357
"I tend to think that God knows what you will choose."

But you seem to admit, there is no definite Bible verse(s) that support this thought of yours. That is enough for me, about your ideas. With all respect, thanks.

But you seem to admit, there is no definite Bible verse(s) that support this thought of yours. That is enough for me, about your ideas. With all respect, thanks.

What difference does it make to unveiling the origins of Satan ?

If you have an enemy, you may contemplate a lot of philosophical matters. The important thing is that you learn how to deal with your enemy.

Satan was lifted up because of his pride. He corrupted his wisdom and opposed God to the uttermost. He hates God. He hates man. He hates even more the man saved by God. He is a liar. He is the source and father of lies. He is the slanderer - slandering YOU before God and slandering God within your own thoughts.

What difference does it make to say some background philosophical concepts could be rigorously debated ? If you GET your answer will that help you STAND against the wiles of Satan ? Or will that just ease your intellectual curiosity ?

What is valuable is to see what in Satan could also be a trap within ourselves as humans. Let's dive into Christ, the One who overcame Satan and put this little snake into the lake of fire where he belongs.

Then maybe in the millennium or in eternity we can muse to our heart's content about free will, predestination and other philosophical axioms.

We need the practicality of stripping this being naked that we may see what God is dealing with, and what those of us saved in His salvation are also dealing with.

Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
Look it up my a$$.

Look what up?

The ramblings of a few nut cases who committed their
thoughts to paper thousands of years ago? What you and
he are asking to look up are writings which have no basis in fact.

You cannot prove there is a God and neither can he.

You are putting faith in that which is not there.
You will die a very di ne. Your final destination
will be six feet of earth, unless you are lost at sea or burned.

You will die a very disappointed man when you find
out that there is nothing there after all.

When you're gone, you're gone. Your final destination

My brother RJHinds can answer for himself.
But I would respond in this way to the above.

The man who follows Jesus "dies" daily. We do not have to wait to see how we will feel on the day we finally physically die. For when we follow the Lord Jesus as opposed to following our fallen and sinful selves, we "die" a little bit every time.

Wonderfully, we also are resurrected. We find that in Christ there is no loss except there is a corresponding amount of gain - "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain."

Since bit by bit we daily see that death and resurrection victory are operating in us through out our lives, the final actual physical dying will not be that much of a shock.

We have followed the Leader in the death of vicious ego, picking up our cross and following Him. And we have seen that every instance of denying ourselves has corresponded with transcendence and victory in Jesus.

The "realism" has already been operating in our daily enjoyment of denying ourselves to follow the Lord. We expect reward. We expect glorious compensation. We expect eternal life. We expect that eye has not seen nor ear heard the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.

We expect that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

We boast today that all things are ours - life and death too -

" ... all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all are yours, But you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." (see 1 Cor. 3:21-23)

We USE death for God's eternal purpose. How can we be defeated by it ?

Part of your humanity is deadened and needs to be born again by touching Jesus. Part of your capacity to detect spiritual truths is comatose, deadened, darkened. So the Bible seems like foolishness to your fallen mind.

Your mind can be healed and enlightened if you would come to Jesus and confess that you are the guilty sinner that you really are. He is ready to cleanse you and enlighten your mind bit by bit. Then you would see His great love for you and that the Bible is truly the revelation from God to us.

Originally posted by sonship

But you seem to admit, there is no definite Bible verse(s) that support this thought of yours. That is enough for me, about your ideas. With all respect, thanks.

What difference does it make to unveiling the origins of Satan ?

If you have an enemy, you may contemplate a lot of philosophical matters. The important thing is that you l e what God is dealing with, and what those of us saved in His salvation are also dealing with.

In physics and other branches of science there are such things as useful fictions. Typically they are applications of everyday metaphors to "explain" or make talking about certain things easier, with the knowledge that the substance of the metaphor is not the real thing. An example is "spin". An example that reveals the fact that useful fictions are at play, are the types of quarks --
Family 1
Lightest quarks
(Everyday world of baryons and mesons (protons, neutrons etc..,))
Up
Down
anti-Up
anti-Down

Family 2
Heavier quarks
(Higher energy physics world)
strange
charm
anti-strange
anti-charm

So maybe the reality underlying behind Satan is something real, in the same way that the reality underlying quarks is something real. I can let it go at that.

Originally posted by JS357
In physics and other branches of science there are such things as useful fictions. Typically they are applications of everyday metaphors to "explain" or make talking about certain things easier, with the knowledge that the substance of the metaphor is not the real thing. An example is "spin". An example that reveals the fact that useful fictions are at play, a ...[text shortened]... the same way that the reality underlying quarks is something real. I can let it go at that.

I heard that when they wouldn't let the Higg's particle into the Cathedral he replied "But without me you can't have Mass."

Seriously now. Free will verses predestination has been debated for a long time. I don't propose to answer the dilemma for anyone in short Internet post.

Practically speaking I notice that when I enjoy Christ the Lord within I overcome Satan's operation. When I try to go it without The Victor I fall every time.

The taste of practical and collective victory occupies of us. We have time to iron out the philosophical paradoxes maybe after the kingdom of God is established everywhere.

The purpose of Satan's rebellion was to exalt himself to be equal with God. We see the five "I will"s in Isaiah 14:13-14) .

Now a word about the "north" in that passage. The ancient Daystar says - "And I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north."

The north is used symbolically to indicate the place of God's ultimate government. I have ground to say this based upon Psalm 75:6 which says -

"For neither from the east nor from the west , neither from the south, does exaltation [come]; For God is the Judge: He puts this one down and exalts that one."

Notice that three directions are given - east, west, south. But the fourth direction north is replaced by "God is the Judge".

Perhaps this proves that the Holy Spirit used "north" to indicate the direction of God's ultimate authority.

At any rate the other name for the Anointed Cherub is the Daystar. Lucifer, I believe is the Latin equivalent.

Only three angels are mentioned by name in the Bible - Michael, Gabriel, and Daystar [Lucifer]. Lucifer became Satan.

"O Daystar, son of the dawn!" (Isa. 14:12a) The "son of the dawn" probably indicates that he was there in the "dawn" of the creation of the world. He was there in the early universe.

In the book of Revelation we see twenty four "elders" sitting around the throne of God. These elders on thrones are not the elders of Israel or the elders of the Christian church. The vision of the twenty four elders clothed in white with golden crowns cannot be church elders or else John would be among them. John was one of the original 12 disciples.

The context of Revelation chapter 4 is a praise of God the Creator of all the universe. Therefore the "elders" around His throne there must be the elders of creation. The angels are the most ancient of the living beings created by God.

"And around the throne [there were] twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns." (Rev. 4:4)

From this class of elder created beings the Daystar - Lucifer came. I do not mean he was one of the 24 elders. I mean in principle Lucifer was one of the elder angelic beings created in the dawn of the universe.

The creation was under the supervision of these ancient angelic beings before the creation of man. Satan had his dominion. I will in coming posts attempt to demonstrate that this realm of his consisted not only of angels but of creatures upon the earth. That is upon the earth in a pre-Adamic age.

Originally posted by JS357
In physics and other branches of science there are such things as useful fictions. Typically they are applications of everyday metaphors to "explain" or make talking about certain things easier, with the knowledge that the substance of the metaphor is not the real thing. An example is "spin". An example that reveals the fact that useful fictions are at play, a ...[text shortened]... the same way that the reality underlying quarks is something real. I can let it go at that.

Family 2
Heavier quarks
(Higher energy physics world)
strange
charm
anti-strange
anti-charm

So maybe the reality underlying behind Satan is something real, in the same way that the reality underlying quarks is something real. I can let it go at that.

Actually the point is appreciated. That is because we too often think of God only in terms of the very big. Yet He has to be also the God of the unimaginably small.

The universe itself is so large, yet it is God's creation. Yet the micro universe is His design as well. The millions of years are overseen by Him. But so also is a trillions of a trillionth of a micro second.

This is very important to Christ the Lord entering into our hearts. The micro seconds of reactions in our being can be under His loving control. And spontaneously He can mingle with us on a microscopic level in our intentions, thoughts, imaginations, inclinations and choices.

So I very much appreciation the mention of the very small cosmos only recently discovered. Who knows where it ends on a large scale or on a small scale.

Atheist Christopher Hitchens voiced his objections to God. He called Him a dictator like the dictator of North Korea watching over him even in his sleep.

Those of us who have enjoyed the shepherding of Jesus have appreciated how sometimes He helped us moment by moment, second by second through very hard psychological times. We were glad that on a minute level God can oversee the motions of our being even down to the micro second.

If He DIED for us we can trust Him to live in us.
If He laid down His life for us on the cross that we might have eternal redemption, we should be able to entrust to Him also our moment by moment living. We can trust Him to come into our hearts and unite with us.

Praise this indwelling Savior Who overcame the world, won the victory over Satan's corrupted wisdom to deceive.

The Daystar was a king and a priest. Perhaps he led the universal worship/ He seems to have had a place of honor very close to God presence of God's glory.

Ezekiel 28:14 - "You are the anointed cherub that covers ..." This reminds us of the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant which cover it (comp. Exodus 25:20). I don't know exactly what this means. But the parallel between the two cherubim which are of gold and cover the top of the Ark being suggested in the words -the anointed cherub that covers" suggests Lucifer was very close to the ultimate spot of glory in Heaven.

There is a ark in heaven as John saw the ark of the covenant in heaven in Revelation 11:19..

God says that He set Lucifer in that position - "And I have set you so." So God set this Anointed Cherub in such a high and glorious position. It seems to mean that He set him to cover His ark in Heaven.

Ezekiel tells us that the cherubim are the four living creatures which are of special use to God (Ezek. 10:20). And the four living creatures in Ezekiel are similar to the four in Revelation 4:7 (compare to Ezek. 1:10)).

These creatures take the lead in worshiping God in Revelation. They seem to lead all the other angels in worship. This reveals that today's Satan, God's adversary, originally the anointed cherub, must have been specially appointed by God to be head among His creatures. He must have had a special bearing of the glory of God and lead them all to worship God. This is why we say he had a priesthood as well as a governing kingship.

"You were upon the holy mountain of God" speaks of His being in the government in heaven. "You have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

What are these "stones of fire" ? Perhaps it is related to what Moses saw in his vision of God in Exodus 24:10,17. Moses, Aaron, and many other elders of Israel saw under God's throne some precious stones with the glory of God like burning fire. Maybe those are the stones of fire. At any rate the concept conveyed is that the anointed cherub had a privileged place access. He could move about in a very close relationship with the Most High God in the most blazing realm of divine glory.

This "son of the morning" was in the morning of the creation of the universe. He was the head of all the angels.

Satan's origin was wonderful. He was God's anointed cherub that covers, the one closest to God and holding the highest position in God's creation.

The kingship and the priesthood is something that the saints - the saved of Christ, have in eternity to come. So we replace this one in Christ's salvation. But man is made from dust. No wonder Satan hates this dusty creature of man. He will not stand to see his glorious past position enjoyed by this new creation - the dusty man.

How about creatures on the earth? We know that the Bible speaks of "the Devil ... and his angels" (Rev. 12:9) But there must have been other creatures who were under him and joined him in his ancient rebellion.

Some suggestions -

1.) Revelation 9 speaks of the fallen Satan opening the pit of the abyss and releasing demonic creatures like locusts -

"And he [the fallen star] opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the put like the smoke of a great furnace ... and out of the smoke came forth locusts to the earth, and to them was power given, as the scirpions of the earth have power ... and the locusts were like horses prepared for war, and on their heads [there were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were like faces of men. And the had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like [the teeth] of lions." (Rev. 9:2,3,7,8)

These military like monsters seem to be imprisoned from a long previous age. The crowns upon their heads suggests some kind of kingly association. Maybe in the long previous ages before Adam was created these beings were storm troopers of the Daystar in an ancient rebellion to seize the earth completely for Satan and away from God.

I believe that these beings are somehow associated with Satan's ancient and old earth world. They were so terrible that they were imprisioned in the abyss. But in the end times Satan will release them to torment the man on earth that Satan hates. I don't want to be on this earth when this is going on. There will be no need for horror movies. The real situation will be more horror than anyone can stand.

Did God create these beings? If He did then like Satan they must have corrupted themselves to be as horrible like their master Satan. Then maybe the powerful kingly Anointed Cherub had a hand in their creation.

These things I really do not know for certain. The magicians of Pharoah were able to imitate the miracle Moses performed by the power of God. When Moses under God's direction performed a miracle of changing a stave into a serpent, the Egyptian magicians told Pharoah in essence - "No problem. By our dark arts we can do the same thing." They also changed their rods into serpents. The extent of Satanic miracle working power we may not fully know.

It is mysterious. But these could have been ancient beings on earth.

Now we all have heard that the flood of Noah was a judgment on the world of Noah. But it is also revealed that in the new heaven and the new earth there is no more sea. But the sea was seen covering the land as the great deep in Genesis 1:2.

What is wrong with the sea? Why is not only DEATH abolished in the new universe but also the sea ?

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more." (Rev. 21:1)

There is no more death. And there is no more SEA. I will discuss the significance of the sea in relation to the old earth which was under the dominion of Lucifer. And we will talk about what could have happened to any intelligent creatures which may have been upon it.

Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
I am not a religious person but I have a few questions for you.

1. If your God, is all knowing and all seeing, why did he create Satan?

2. Did he not make an error in creating him?

3. When Satan rebelled, why did God cast him down to the earth?

4. Didn't he realize that on earth Satan would corrupt man?

5. With all of the univer he was not God.


Jesus said you must worship God, not him, for he is your fellow servant.

7. You said Jesus is your God, but Jesus said he was not God.

Jesus is like "new improved God."

Jesus is God having gone through a process of incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, ascension and impartation into man as "life giving Spirit"

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Now is this related to the topic of the ancient old earth origin of Satan ? Yes, it is in an important way.

How can I speak of "new improved God" ? How can there be an improvement upon perfection ?

Well the improvement is not in that sense as making God better. He is the best. The improvement is that God passed through a process in which He became man and then became a life giving Spirit to dispense this One into us. And He brings God into us to be mingled with us.

Now THIS is something the Daystar NEVER had and never dreamed of. This was an improvement in the relationship of a created being with his Creator. Now the uncreated divine Being could come INTO the created being to be united with him.

The raw God was before incarnation. The processed or even "cooked" God is after "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14)

Now is this one - this Jesus God Himself ? Yes. So I say that my God is the man Jesus. And my Man is the God Jehovah.

This is God having passed through a process in which God could be "cooked" and served into us as food. You know the nutritionists say that "You are what you eat."

If we eat God in Christ we will be constituted with God Himself. We will be mingled with God. And this is something Satan never had even as high as he was in position. Satan and no angel could receive God within them as their life. But man, made of the dust of the earth, can receive God into him as eternal life.

Now before the "cooking" and preparation we see God saying this -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

And again in Isaiah 48:23

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, whom I called; I am He; I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed, My hand laid the foundations of the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens ..."

But after the process of incarnation into the Lord Jesus Christ, a perfect human life of thirty three and one half years, a redemptive death for our sins, and a glorious resurrection in victory, and ascension back to the throne of God, and an imparting into His disciples as life giving Spirit, this "cooked" God says this -

" ... Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)

This is not ANOTHER First. This is not ANOTHER Last. This is Jehovah God, the First and the Last having gone through incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, ascension, and life impartation to be again the First and the Last united with His saved people.

This is something the highest archangel created never had. And he is doing his utmost to keep it from happening. But it is happening. Praise the Lord.

Originally posted by sonship

7. You said Jesus is your God, but Jesus said he was not God.

Jesus is like "new improved God."

Jesus is God having gone through a process of incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, ascension and impartation into man as [b]"life giving Spirit"

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

N tmost to keep it from happening. But it is happening. Praise the Lord.[/b]

You do love to type, don't you....

Do you seriously think anyone reads all that crap?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You do love to type, don't you....

Do you seriously think anyone reads all that crap?

Yes, I like to type about Christ.
Yes, I think someone will read it.

And sorry that you feel you don't have anything in your heart worth telling anyone, something else besides your typical bitching and moaning about what Christians believe.

Originally posted by sonship
Yes, I like to type about Christ.
Yes, I think someone will read it.

And sorry that you feel you don't have anything in your heart worth telling anyone, something else besides your typical bitching and moaning about what Christians believe.

I'm sure that the devout monks who illuminated Bibles got enough out of just doing it. You're doing it in words. Although I must admit that I only scan most of your posts,, and I take your words in the spirit in which I read analytical writings on Shakespeare's plays.

Originally posted by JS357
I'm sure that the devout monks who illuminated Bibles got enough out of just doing it. You're doing it in words. Although I must admit that I only scan most of your posts,, and I take your words in the spirit in which I read analytical writings on Shakespeare's plays.

God's revelation of our meaning and destiny as created beings, though not always easy to get, beats the black hole of guesswork coming from the continuous bitching of sonhouse.