1. PenTesting
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    24 Oct '11 20:10
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Then name the other as mentioned in scripture, that being the Bible as we have it today.
    Do you think the Bible is supposed to contain a listing of the names of all the angels and archangels? Why? Just to satisfy the JW?

    Assumptions cannot lead to reliable conclusions.
  2. Donationbbarr
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    24 Oct '11 20:111 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Consistency should be kept throughout me thinks, and the reader should be allowed to
    use their discernment whether an act of obeisance is one of worship or not. It seems
    to me that to translate it inconsistently and to determine in some instances that its
    obeisance and others that its worship is to impose ones bias upon scripture.
    Right. So you would translate proskyneo as 'bow down' (or something like that) everywhere it appears in the NT? Is there any Greek word that appears in the NT that you would consistently translate as 'worship' (e.g., 'sebo')?
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    24 Oct '11 20:141 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Do you think the Bible is supposed to contain a listing of the names of all the angels and archangels? Why? Just to satisfy the JW?

    Assumptions cannot lead to reliable conclusions.
    so you cannot name any, thank you. Once gain there are only two angels named in
    scripture and one archangel, Michael. This is accurate and this can be determined
    from scripture.
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    24 Oct '11 20:25
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Right. So you would translate proskyneo as 'bow down' (or something like that) everywhere it appears in the NT? Is there any Greek word that appears in the NT that you would consistently translate as 'worship' (e.g., 'sebo')?
    mmm, this is such an excellent question that it needs some thought. I guess that
    the context must be examined and evaluated and a decision rendered as to whether
    the text requires a strict adherence to doing obeisance, bowing down or whether it
    requires to be evaluated as worship. Please consider the following,

    The Greek verb latreuo (Lu 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7) and the noun latreia (Joh 16:2;
    Ro 9:4) convey the idea of rendering not merely an ordinary, mundane service but
    sacred service.

    The Greek word proskyneo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah in
    expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term proskyneo is
    used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Mt 18:26) as well as the
    act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their
    glory. (Mt 4:8, 9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have
    signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus
    refused, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must
    worship [form of Gr. proskyneo or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was
    quoting, Heb. hishtachawah], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service
    [form of Gr. latreuo or Heb. avadh].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13) Similarly, worship,
    obeisance, or bowing down to “the wild beast” and its “image” is linked with service,
    for the worshipers are identified as supporters of “the wild beast” and its “image” by
    having a mark either on the hand (with which one serves) or on the forehead (for
    all to see). Since the Devil gives the wild beast its authority, worshiping the wild
    beast means, in reality, worshiping or serving the Devil.—Re 13:4, 15-17; 14:9-11.

    Other Greek words associated with worship are drawn from eusebeo, threskeuo,
    and sebomai. The word eusebeo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate,
    revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or
    veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From
    threskeuo comes the noun threskeia, understood to designate a “form of worship,”
    whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians
    was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the
    ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sebomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27)
    and the related term sebazomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.”

    Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sebasma. (Ac 17:23;
    2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theos, God.
    These are theosebes, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosebeia, denoting
    “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10) These two terms correspond somewhat to the
    German word for “public worship,” namely, Gottesdienst (a combination of “God” and
    “service&rdquo😉.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    24 Oct '11 20:25
    Originally posted by bbarr
    What translation is that? The passage you're quoting is Chapter 19, Verse 1 of Enoch. But in none of the translations I've read has that verse started off with the term 'archangel'; they just say 'Uriel'.
    I am quoting from "THE OTHER BIBLE" Jewish Pseudepigrapha,
    Christian Apocrypha, Gnostic Scriptures, Kabbalah, Dead Sea Scrolls
    1984, Edited with Introductions by Willis Barnstone

    The translation is stated to be from R.H. Charles, The Apocrypha and
    Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    24 Oct '11 20:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Consistency should be kept throughout me thinks, and the reader should be allowed to
    use their discernment whether an act of obeisance is one of worship or not. It seems
    to me that to translate it inconsistently and to determine in some instances that its
    obeisance and others that its worship is to impose ones bias upon scripture.
    Putting rules on God is a wee bit egotistical, eh?

    He tells us in the Bible what He chooses us to know.

    The Bible is NOT the end-all be-all of knowledge about God. Some things He might wish to keep to Himself, ever think of that? But no, you'd rather put rules on God.

    I told you once about how pride is a sin, Robbie.
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    24 Oct '11 20:281 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Putting rules on God is a wee bit egotistical, eh?

    He tells us in the Bible what He chooses us to know.

    The Bible is NOT the end-all be-all of knowledge about God. Some things He might wish to keep to Himself, ever think of that? But no, you'd rather put rules on God.

    I told you once about how pride is a sin, Robbie.
    what is this? we use the bible to establish points and we are damned.

    (Acts 17:2-3) . . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three
    sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,  explaining and proving by
    references
    that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer. . .
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    24 Oct '11 20:28
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Do you think the Bible is supposed to contain a listing of the names of all the angels and archangels? Why? Just to satisfy the JW?

    Assumptions cannot lead to reliable conclusions.
    Spot on.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    24 Oct '11 20:29
    Originally posted by bbarr
    What translation is that? The passage you're quoting is Chapter 19, Verse 1 of Enoch. But in none of the translations I've read has that verse started off with the term 'archangel'; they just say 'Uriel'.
    Does your version name any of the angels as archangels?
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    24 Oct '11 20:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what is this? we use the bible to establish points and we are damned.

    (Acts 17:2-3) . . .So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three
    sabbaths he reasoned with them [b]from the Scriptures,  explaining and proving by
    references
    that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer. . .[/b]
    That still does not mean EVERYTHING about God is in the scripture.
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    24 Oct '11 20:30
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Spot on.
    try considering what's actually in it, who knows what you might learn.
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    24 Oct '11 20:32
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    That still does not mean EVERYTHING about God is in the scripture.
    Now why didn't Paul use that when he was reasoning with the Jews and providing
    references from some other source! do tell.
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    24 Oct '11 20:32
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Does your version name any of the angels as archangels?
    haha, what a desperado!
  14. Donationbbarr
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    24 Oct '11 20:37
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Does your version name any of the angels as archangels?
    No, the term 'archangel' never occurs.
  15. Donationbbarr
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    24 Oct '11 20:40
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    mmm, this is such an excellent question that it needs some thought. I guess that
    the context must be examined and evaluated and a decision rendered as to whether
    the text requires a strict adherence to doing obeisance, bowing down or whether it
    requires to be evaluated as worship. Please consider the following,

    The Greek verb latreuo (Lu ...[text shortened]... German word for “public worship,” namely, Gottesdienst (a combination of “God” and
    “service&rdquo😉.
    Thanks, this is very good (and thanks for humoring my questions!). More later, after I've given this some thought.
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