Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt was the Word that was with God in the beginning that we know from
Yes Conrau brought the matter up once where he essentially attempted the argument that
which one of the angels has God likened to his son, or words to that effect, however, it
seems to me that we are not talking of any common angel, but a unique and singular
entity, foremost above all angels. Could this be a description of the Christ? we have ...[text shortened]... sent one), a
created entity (Col 1:15) and a son of God (as were the other angelic creatures).
John's gospel was the preincarnate Christ. We also know from the letter
to the Hebrews that He created all things that were created. Therefore
He could not have been one of the things created. We are told He was
begotten, not created. Michael the archangel is a created being he was
not begotten for there was only one that was begotten of God.
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Originally posted by RJHindsso was Christ, he is not termed 'the only begotten', for nothing you know. He is not
It was the Word that was with God in the beginning that we know from
John's gospel was the preincarnate Christ. We also know from the letter
to the Hebrews that He created all things that were created. Therefore
He could not have been one of the things created. We are told He was
begotten, not created. Michael the archangel is a created being he was
not begotten for there was only one that was begotten of God.
termed 'the first born of all creation', for nothing you know. Christ had a beginning, he
was a created entity, take it or leave it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in
of all the things that you stated, seven archangels ministering to God might be a good place to start.
Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon, where they are
named as Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael. While this
book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted in
the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAlright. But you know that folks are going to take issue with this, since scripture is pretty clear about not worshipping angels, praying to them, etc. Do you think that these prohibitions only apply to the other, lesser angels? Is it Michael/Jesus' arch-ness that makes worship of/prayer to him OK?
Yes Conrau brought the matter up once where he essentially attempted the argument that
which one of the angels has God likened to his son, or words to that effect, however, it
seems to me that we are not talking of any common angel, but a unique and singular
entity, foremost above all angels. Could this be a description of the Christ? we have ...[text shortened]... sent one), a
created entity (Col 1:15) and a son of God (as were the other angelic creatures).
Originally posted by bbarrRight and God the Father commanded all the Angels to worship God the Son.
Alright. But you know that folks are going to take issue with this, since scripture is pretty clear about not worshipping angels, praying to them, etc. Do you think that these prohibitions only apply to the other, lesser angels? Is it Michael/Jesus' arch-ness that makes worship of/prayer to him OK?
Originally posted by robbie carrobiemicheal..gabriel...raphiel...uriel...raguel...sariel.. jeremiel..
of all the things that you stated, seven archangels ministering to God might be a good place to start.
but as for the four letters of god we have them in the ot but no one says the name even any angel. and how can i say jesus never said other than he never said??
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Originally posted by bbarrHi, yes this is clear, but its not really an issue because we do not profess that one
Alright. But you know that folks are going to take issue with this, since scripture is pretty clear about not worshipping angels, praying to them, etc. Do you think that these prohibitions only apply to the other, lesser angels? Is it Michael/Jesus' arch-ness that makes worship of/prayer to him OK?
should worship Christ nor pray to him, in fact it seems that those doing so are
worshipping the creation rather than the creator. Worship of angels as always been
forbidden as far as i can discern, some refusing even to give their names lest it detract
from proper and exclusive devotion to the creator. There are of course certain issues
with translation where the translators have rendered a phrase, essentially meaning to ,
bow down or do obeisance as is the manner in the east at the time, yet when it comes
to Christ, it suddenly becomes an act of worship. Its interesting to follow their bias in
this regard.
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Originally posted by stokerGabriel and the others are not archangels. In fact, i think that there are only two
micheal..gabriel...raphiel...uriel...raguel...sariel.. jeremiel..
but as for the four letters of god we have them in the ot but no one says the name even any angel. and how can i say jesus never said other than he never said??
angels mentioned by name in scripture. Do you have a scriptural reference to the
contrary?
[i]Originally posted by RJH to arei have slightly diferent names similar sarageal is sariel and remiel is jeremiel but i do not dispute there existance
named as Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael. While this
book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted in
the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels[/b]
-Removed-Here is the whole quote:
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service
for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
(Hebrews 1:5-14 NASB)