Spirituality
02 Jul 22
03 Jul 22
3 edits
@kellyjay saidNon-existent.
How do you describe God, or is all you got is a disagreement with how dive
started off?
If God's attributes are to be discerned from what we read in the Bible (in its entirety) then you have to factor in the petty, jealous and tribal God presented in the Old Testament, attributes that simply do not measure up to the attributes Dive put forward.
Take for example Hosea 13-16 - "You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
or Jeremiah 13:15–26:
"Hear and give ear; do not be haughty, for the Lord has spoken. . . . And if you say in your heart, 'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen."
Where in the above do we glimpse Dive's merciful, righteous and morally unimpeachable God? Where is the kind, gentle and understanding and inclusive God he speaks of?
03 Jul 22
@divegeester saidEither way you are defeated.
Why do you adhere to that dichotomised thinking ?
Christian X claims the Bible is the inerrant word of God and therefore has to assimilate the Monster God we see in the Old Testament, a God that is repellent and at times sadistic. This taints whatever we find in the New Testament and is a permanent open goal in these kind of discussions. (I could easily provide 20 passages on demand from the OT that show God to be monstrous and cruel).
Christian Z decides to cherry pick the attributes he likes and discard the ones he doesn't. This unfortunately undermines the integrity of the Bible as a whole rendering it meaningless and irrelevant. (if every individual Christian is free to use the Bible as a pick and mix). It would be akin to cherry picking which laws to follow in society based on personal preference.
03 Jul 22
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I am not sure that the existence or non-existence of a God figure has much bearing on the attributes that its believers assign to it.
The questions are "When you describe God how do you do it? And why do you believe what you say?"
I don't see how your explicit atheism and my implicit atheism affect whatever attributes believers believe exist.
03 Jul 22
1 edit
@fmf saidI answered Kelly in 2 parts. As an atheist, I describe God as non-existent.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I am not sure that the existence or non-existence of a God figure has much bearing on the attributes that its believers assign to it.
The questions are "When you describe God how do you do it? And why do you believe what you say?"
I don't see how your explicit atheism and my implicit atheism affect whatever attributes believers believe exist.
And for those Christians who do believe in God, it is not unreasonable to ask on what basis they discern His attributes. If it's the Bible then why only parts of the Bible? Why are all those attributes rose-tinted?
It's like when people talk about how beautiful and inspiring the Bible is. Well 'hello,' have you actually read the Old Testament, or indeed the New Testament where we have the lamb of God watching over the damned as they burn for eternity in hell?
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, I understand, and there’s nothing wrong with your observations. But I'm not convinced that conjecture about attributes - however scriptural or fanciful or contradictory they may be - matters until those believers make assertions about morality and about other ideology that impinges on the reality of our lives.
And for those Christians who do believe in God, it is not unreasonable to ask on what basis they discern His attributes. If it's the Bible then why only parts of the Bible? Why are all those attributes rose-tinted?
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke said“Defeated” is that how you feel in this exchange ?
Either way you are defeated.
I have started threads, one not so long ago, detailing my thoughts on the inerrancy of the Bible as a whole, it in no way diminishes my sense of faith and focus of it through Jesus Christ.
If my holding to that paradigm gives you some sense of your victory then good for you.
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThese, well most of them anyway, have been expounded upon by myself in this forum for nearly 14 years, through the focus of the notion of eternal suffering, which is by far the worst ideological concept one has to assimilate if one is to take the bible as literal and inerrant.
Additional attributes of the Christian God (Biblically supported) :
Angry
Harsh
Vengeful
Needy
Petty
Genocidal
Cruel
Disproportionate
Jealous
03 Jul 22
@divegeester saidThe 'position' is defeated. (Whether Christian X or Christian Z). A Christian who relies on the Bible in its entirety can't escape the horrors of the OT and a Christian who cherry-picks weakens the foundations of their own faith, dependent as it is on scripture. For if the Bible isn't inerrant, who decides which parts are to be trusted?
“Defeated” is that how you feel in this exchange ?
I have started threads, one not so long ago, detailing my thoughts on the inerrancy of the Bible as a whole, it in no way diminishes my sense of faith and focus of it through Jesus Christ.
If my holding to that paradigm gives you some sense of your victory then good for you.
And we are not discussing your faith we are discussing God's attributes which you have listed. Again, how have you come to compile that list? What is it based on? Just the nice bits of the Bible?!
03 Jul 22
@divegeester saidThese are your attributes of God:
These, well most of them anyway, have been expounded upon by myself in this forum for nearly 14 years, through the focus of the notion of eternal suffering, which is by far the worst ideological concept one has to assimilate if one is to take the bible as literal and inerrant.
Sovereign, responsible and accountable. Merciful, righteous and morally unimpeachable. Kind, gentle and understanding. Victorious, triumphant and inclusive.
These are mine:
Angry, Harsh, Vengeful, Needy, Petty, Genocidal, Cruel, Disproportionate, Jealous.
All of the above, your list and my list, are derived solely from scripture, the only source of information we have about the Christian God. (Excluding any personal divine encounter I'm unaware of).
How does your list hold any meaning when my list shares the same source? How can you freely describe God as merciful, for example, when he ordered His believers to commit genocide and kill women and children?
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI'd say through the scriptures; the Bible teaches us that God is Holy, which is to say
I answered Kelly in 2 parts. As an atheist, I describe God as non-existent.
And for those Christians who do believe in God, it is not unreasonable to ask on what basis they discern His attributes. If it's the Bible then why only parts of the Bible? Why are all those attributes rose-tinted?
It's like when people talk about how beautiful and inspiring the Bible is ...[text shortened]... Testament where we have the lamb of God watching over the damned as they burn for eternity in hell?
He is apart from all else, unique in every respect, the creator of all things, not one
created. God doesn't change; there is no shadow of turning in Him; He is steadfast,
He is Sovereign, He always does His will without fail, and everything He does as He
does it always done in righteousness, goodness, love, and justice without sacrificing
one attribute to fulfill another; these attributes are not just how God does things
they are God, not as different pieces of Him; it is Him, so He will always be true to
them, He can do no less, for it is who He is.
Concerning the Old and New Testaments, man sinning in God's creation did
create an issue. As the Eternal Almighty God from everlasting to everlasting who
created all things and holds all things together by the power of His Word; all
things are done in Him that are good and lovely are pleasing to Him, while all of
the evil done in Him are crimes against Him. Therefore, He judges and can not
overlook sin according to His righteousness. He must condemn each one as an
act of evil against Him, the eternal God.
Making us in His image, we had to be given the ability to both love or not. For
it to be authentic, we had to be authentic in it all, being able to succeed and to
fail, and the results, regardless, had to be real for the good or bad. Accepting
sinners couldn't be done without ignoring our sins, all of our bad choices, so
inorder to forgive while not ignoring righteousness, He came into Humanity and
took all the guilt upon Himself and took all of the punishment for what we did
so that in Him, we can be forgiven for all wrong done in Him.
Those who reject that will stand and give the full account for all the evil done in
God's creation to the nth degree; it is a serious thing.
03 Jul 22
@kellyjay saidClearly, that is incorrect. God 'did' change between the OT and the NT. The two are simply incompatible in regards to their attributes.
I'd say through the scriptures; the Bible teaches us that God is Holy, which is to say
He is apart from all else, unique in every respect, the creator of all things, not one
created. God doesn't change; there is no shadow of turning in Him; He is steadfast,
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo He did not the covenant changed not God. We have gone through many changes with God, He has been consistently good and we have consistently come up short, without a law, with the Law, now grace where God received us.
Clearly, that is incorrect. God 'did' change between the OT and the NT. The two are simply incompatible in regards to their attributes.
03 Jul 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidMaybe your saying “you” are defeated was just a Freudian slip then.
The 'position' is defeated.