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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    03 May '18 05:45
    WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus 20:13); and

    WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and

    WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a perfect judicial system; and

    WHEREAS, God authorized capital punishment for murder after the Noahic Flood, validating its legitimacy in human society (Genesis 9:6); and

    WHEREAS, God forbids personal revenge (Romans 12:19) and has established capital punishment as a just and appropriate means by which the civil magistrate may punish those guilty of capital crimes (Romans 13:4); and

    WHEREAS, God requires proof of guilt before any punishment is administered (Deuteronomy 19:15-19); and

    WHEREAS, God's instructions require a civil magistrate to judge all people equally under the law, regardless of class or status (Leviticus 19:15; Deuteronomy 1:17); and

    WHEREAS, All people, including those guilty of capital crimes, are created in the image of God and should be treated with dignity (Genesis 1:27).

    Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida, June 13-14, 2000, support the fair and equitable use of capital punishment by civil magistrates as a legitimate form of punishment for those guilty of murder or treasonous acts that result in death. [http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/299]


    What do Christians and non-Christians make of the details of the above argumentation and resolution ~ and of the question: Do you support the use of capital punishment in a secular [non-theocratic] society?
  2. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    03 May '18 05:48
    Here is some material from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops about The Church's Anti-Death Penalty Position: https://tinyurl.com/88uw793

    And here: https://tinyurl.com/y9ua59v5
  3. Subscriber divegeester
    Naughtius Maximus
    03 May '18 06:01 / 2 edits
    I used to be a supporter of the death penalty and perhaps I still am for terrorism or other crimes of heinous nature.

    I am unclear as wether the death penalty is supported in scripture and appeals to the OT do not move me anymore than the idea of stoning homosexuals moves me.

    I have found it increasingly unnerving how some of the Christians in this forum will struggle to acknowledge that it is NOT right to stone homosexuals, or that it was not right back then, because their interpretation of biblical scripture is cemented in literalism and a miscomprehension of the covenants and morality. The OT is a tough read.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    03 May '18 06:02
    The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA): "The Death Penalty stands in the Lutheran tradition recognizing that God entrusts the state with the power to take human life when failure to do so constitutes a clear danger to the common good. Never-the-less, it expresses ELCA opposition to the use of the death penalty, one that grows out of ministry with and to people affected by violent crime."

    Full statement and argumentation: https://tinyurl.com/yc6t3whx
  5. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    03 May '18 07:45
    Originally posted by @fmf
    [quote]WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus 20:13); and

    WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and

    WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made imposs ...[text shortened]... he question: Do you support the use of capital punishment in a secular [non-theocratic] society?
    I'm against capital punishment and don't think this position would change, even if I became religious.
  6. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    03 May '18 11:06
    Originally posted by @fmf
    [quote]WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus 20:13); and

    WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and

    WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made imposs ...[text shortened]... he question: Do you support the use of capital punishment in a secular [non-theocratic] society?
    I consider myself a religious practicing Christian. However I live in a very violent third world country. Crime is destroying the lives of decent people here. There are some people who do not deserve to be living among decent people and the cost of incarcerating them permanently or rehabilitating them is prohibitive. They need to be executed.
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    Where’s Kiddo?
    03 May '18 12:17
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I consider myself a religious practicing Christian. However I live in a very violent third world country. Crime is destroying the lives of decent people here. There are some people who do not deserve to be living among decent people and the cost of incarcerating them permanently or rehabilitating them is prohibitive. They need to be executed.
    Plenty of people have found Christ while in prison. No one is beyond forgiveness or redemption if they come to God and call upon Him with humility and a repentant heart.
  8. 03 May '18 14:02
    Originally posted by @fmf
    [quote]WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus 20:13); and

    WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and

    WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made imposs ...[text shortened]... he question: Do you support the use of capital punishment in a secular [non-theocratic] society?
    Yet another topic that illustrates the wide gulf between many Christians and followers of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

    WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a perfect judicial system

    Evidently despite the fact that they recognize that the innocent will no doubt be executed, they come out in support of capital punishment. Yet another example of seriously flawed "thinking" by the "Christian right".
  9. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    03 May '18 14:11
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Yet another topic that illustrates the wide gulf between many Christians and followers of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

    [b]WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a perfect judicial system


    Evidently despite the fact that they recognize that the innocent will no doubt be executed, they come out in s ...[text shortened]... capital punishment. Yet another example of seriously flawed "thinking" by the "Christian right".[/b]
    Yes, it is the possibility (and reality) that capital punishment will sometimes be inflicted upon the innocent that makes it unacceptable, in my opinion.
  10. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    03 May '18 14:45
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Yes, it is the possibility (and reality) that capital punishment will sometimes be inflicted upon the innocent that makes it unacceptable, in my opinion.
    Come spend a month in my shoes and then talk. What you suffer from is a mindset peculiar to developed countries where life is relatively safe. i have lived in both and I understand how you think about these things. But unless you have lived among vicious murders rapes and child abuse you will not understand. The authorities are powerless to act. The vast majority of people living in countries like these support the death penalty

    As for the Christian doctrine, God has given the governments the authority to act in any way they think fit to sort these problems out. Let me know if you need some references.
  11. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    03 May '18 15:16
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Come spend a month in my shoes and then talk. What you suffer from is a mindset peculiar to developed countries where life is relatively safe. i have lived in both and I understand how you think about these things. But unless you have lived among vicious murders rapes and child abuse you will not understand. The authorities are powerless to act. The vast m ...[text shortened]... t in any way they think fit to sort these problems out. Let me know if you need some references.
    It is true that I can only speak from my personal context, though would imagine an innocent person being put to death is a bad thing in any country.
  12. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    03 May '18 16:14
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    It is true that I can only speak from my personal context, though would imagine an innocent person being put to death is a bad thing in any country.
    Somebody does not like your post and its not me. I think if the leaders in developed countries had your attitude things in 3W countries might be better regarding the need to use the death penalty. I say that because there is a lot of pressure on these small incompetent governments which are corrupt and crooked to adopt first world policies. Your willingness to admit that your do not appreciate the problems is a good start. If I had the authority my stance would be to invite them to come here and understand our problems, then ask them to offer some help, otherwise I would say to them butt the F&%$ out of our affairs.

    As for executing the innocent with technology these days - DNA, video or expert evidence, that can be almost eliminated. Plus if the death penalty is involved the standard of proof is greater. If there is a slight chance of innocence then it incarceration for life, otherwise death.

    Bad is good when the other options are worse and worst.
  13. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    04 May '18 09:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Yet another topic that illustrates the wide gulf between many Christians and followers of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

    [b]WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a perfect judicial system


    Evidently despite the fact that they recognize that the innocent will no doubt be executed, they come out in s ...[text shortened]... capital punishment. Yet another example of seriously flawed "thinking" by the "Christian right".[/b]
    However, I am not part of the Christian right. If I have to have a label, how about Christian left?

    Yet I am also aware that there are some horrible people in the world, people beyond salvation, people who are truly evil. I fully support capital punishment for these people, when convicted of their crimes.

    People like the guy in this news item:

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-burn-hell-apos-fla-184750598.html
  14. 04 May '18 14:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    However, I am not part of the Christian right. If I have to have a label, how about Christian left?

    Yet I am also aware that there are some horrible people in the world, people beyond salvation, people who are truly evil. I fully support capital punishment for these people, when convicted of their crimes.

    People like the guy in this news item:

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-burn-hell-apos-fla-184750598.html
    Evidently though you side with the "Christian Left" on many issues, you side with the "Christian Right" when it comes to capital punishment.

    From what I've seen from Romans I'd guess that the opposite is true of him.

    That you fall on the side of the "Christian Right" on this issue should give you pause.

    "...people beyond salvation..."

    How exactly are you able to JUDGE with absolute certainty that any given individual is "beyond salvation"?
  15. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    04 May '18 23:47
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Evidently though you side with the "Christian Left" on many issues, you side with the "Christian Right" when it comes to capital punishment.

    From what I've seen from Romans I'd guess that the opposite is true of him.

    That you fall on the side of the "Christian Right" on this issue should give you pause.

    [b]"...people beyond salvation..."

    ...[text shortened]... y are you able to JUDGE with absolute certainty that any given individual is "beyond salvation"?[/b]
    Did Charles Manson ever find salvation while he "walked the earth"? Do you think he was worthy of it? Then why didn't he find it?

    Sometimes a waste of time is just a waste of time.