Cherrypickers

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
No man comes to the Father except through Him.

So go ask Christ.

All I can say is that I choose to believe in what Jesus Christ said FIRST.
I believe all other Bible doctrines SECOND .. a distant second.

"All I can say is that I choose to believe in what Jesus Christ said FIRST.
I believe all other Bible doctrines SECOND .. a distant second."

Cherry-picking again I see! Such hypocrisy Rajk!

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"All I can say is that I choose to believe in what Jesus Christ said FIRST.
I believe all other Bible doctrines SECOND .. a distant second."

Cherry-picking again I see! Such hypocrisy Rajk![/b]

Christ has the words of eternal life pal.
So you go ahead and believe all these OSAS flybynight doctrines all you want.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ has the words of eternal life pal.
So you go ahead and believe all these OSAS flybynight doctrines all you want.

[b]John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.[/b]

I'm not the one that's denying what the Word says. I know Jesus is The Way. But you seem to be afraid of the rest of scripture outside the so-called Gospels.

I know why you can't reconcile Peter with Paul.

And don't be offended. I did't say YOU were a hypocrite. All I'm saying is it sounded hypocritical when you said you choose to place one portion of scripture above another in order to make it fit your own interpretation.

The Word of God tells us how to interpret itself. It is not WE who decide what it means by what it says. That's the problem you see. That's why there are so many different interpretations and denominations. Men get in the way.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Other like yourself have some twisted desire to change the meaning of these passages because it condemns your doctrine.

The problem is that your doctrine takes what does not belong to you as yet. You take eternal life as if it were yours to take. Eternal life is GODS RIGHT TO GIVE. God will grant eternal life to the faithful and the righteous on the las ...[text shortened]... in the church that they are saved. The truth is that ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO IS SAVED.

NOT YOU !

The problem is that your doctrine takes what does not belong to you as yet.

No. I know eternal life is mine. And when I lead someone to the Lord Jesus I make sure they have that assurance.

Why? Because the very FIRST thing the enemy of God will do to attack the newborn Christian is to condemn them that they could not possibly be saved. Like this:

"How could YOU be a Christian ? Look, you still have evil desire in you. Look at the way you just sinned after you said you believed in Jesus. How could YOU have the gift of eternal life ? ? "

This kind of accusation against the conscience has to be met by telling Satan to go look at the blood of Jesus -

"And they [Christian brothers] overcame him [Satan the Accuser] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11)

The overcomers overcome Satan's constant accusation against their conscience by what ? [/b] ... by the blood of the Lamb ..." FIRSTLY.

It does not say that they first overcame Satan because they no longer had any errors, failures, or mistakes. It does not say that firstly they overcame Satan because they never had any lapses into a sinful act. It says that FIRST that they overcame [b]"the accuser of the brothers, who accuses them day and night .... by the blood of the Lamb.

The Christian must right away, and throughout his whole life, STAND upon the finished redemption of Christ. The blood of the Redeemer cleanses us from ALL sins. This is the first weapon in the spiritual warfare.

It is after this standing upon the redeeming blood of Christ that has saved us eternally that we go on to proclaim the divine facts - "the word of their testimony" and then to love Christ with a self denial, even unto death if need be.

The problem is that your doctrine takes what does not belong to you as yet.

No again. John assures the disciples - "I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."

This is the basic milk of the Christian teaching. Latter as the young believer begins to learn to overcome pesky accusation from Satan, they graduate to the more solid food. The more solid food of teaching in the New Testament is called "the word of righteousness" and the "meat" of Christian teaching.

It is then we learn about reward and the loss of reward for the coming millennial kingdom. But the gift of eternal life, John says, we may know that we have received.

It is you who want to twist the New Testament to teach that we may "hope" or "cautiously assume" or " see how it turns out " about eternal life. The New Testament says -

"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

The problem is that your doctrine takes what does not belong to you as yet.

Part of the Christian's being IS God. I say again, part of the Christians' being IS God.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The phrase "one spirit" means the TWO spirits have been united to be ONE. The Holy Spirit Who is God Himself has joined to the believer's human spirit. And the capital S Spirit who is God and the human small s spirit of man have become "one spirit" .

That means part of God is the Christian and part of the Christian is God.
"He who is JOINED to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17).

So eternal life is mine and has become part of me. And the New Testament says I have become "firmly attach[ed]" to Christ.

"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God." ( 2 Cor. 1:21)

My human spirit and the Spirit Who is God Himself have become JOINED and UNITED to be one mingled spirit. And I have been not loosely attached with other believers to Christ, but firmly so. And God has given the same Spirit into our hearts a a pledge of this.

"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God. He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Cor. 1:21,22)

You take eternal life as if it were yours to take.

Again ... "that you may KNOW ... that you HAVE eternal life". If I say that I do not know this then I rebel against the word of God.

Eternal life is GODS RIGHT TO GIVE. God will grant eternal life to the faithful and the righteous on the last day, the day of judgment.

NOTHING I wrote implies that it is NOT God's right to give eternal life.

And we are assured that eventually not only in position, but in disposition as well we believers will be presented before God faultless, without blemish or spot or any such sins. It is righteous of God to do this. It is bequeathed to us as an item of His new covenant salvation.

We have been predestinated to such a destiny and He cannot fail to carry out the good work that He has begun.

"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)

Not only in standing but in living, God has ordained us even before the creation of the universe, to be presented as sons before Him "without blemish" of any moral defect - "holy" before Him in love. It is through Christ that God will accomplish this good pleasure of His eternal purpose.

He is ABLE to present each one of the believers eventually before Him fully conformed to the image of Christ, "without blemish".

"But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation.

To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and unto all eternity. Amen." (Jude 24,25)

This is the kind of foundation we put all believers upon. This is the strong foundation they need in order to grow.

Your foundation is terrible because you never teach the believers to stand upon the assurance of eternal redemption. The whole book of Galatians was written to counter the errors you teach.

The worse part of it is that you arrogantly tell gullible followers in the church that they are saved. The truth is that ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO IS SAVED.

We preach the gospel. We baptize the new believers. We receive them into the local church. We teach them of the assurance of salvation. And we build them up in how to abide in the Lord and live by the Lord.

We are ourselves learning to abide in the Lord. This is the normal new covenant teaching. It is not arrogance and it does not prey on the gullible.

Will we sometimes make a mistake and assume someone is saved who is really not ? The answer is probably YES. For Jesus said that a day would come when in the world (not in the church), but in the world there would be tares which are indistinguishable from the wheat ( Matt. 13:24-30)).

Even sometime we may make a mistake and baptize a false believer. It could happen - yes. But this is no call to adopt a policy that we tell NO ONE that they are Christians.

The fact of sometime being mistaken is not the same thing as a procedure to be ignorant and ambiguous. Jesus warned that a mistake can be made. Jesus DID NOT teach that because of that the disciples should not be assured of their salvation or teach the assurance of salvation to others.

You are drunkenly mixing up things with an unclear mind.

NOT YOU !

Teaching the asurance of eternal salvation is teaching as the New Testament teaches. It is not us saying we can bestow eternal salvation on people. It is encouraging them to believe and sensing that they have done so, like us. "Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (Rom. 15:7)

We see that God has received them. So we receive them. And this, even though Christ warned that sometimes we may make a mistake.

www.localchurches.org

Originally posted by josephw
is not WE who decide what it means by what it says.

Who decides then?
You have TWO problems here;
1. Not allowing yourself any critical judgement,
and
2. Empowering those that profess to know.

Which backs up many a theory that religion is
merely a tool to help the powerful rule the weak.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Who decides then?
You have TWO problems here;
1. Not allowing yourself any critical judgement,
and
2. Empowering those that profess to know.

Which backs up many a theory that religion is
merely a tool to help the powerful rule the weak.

Which backs up many a theory that religion is
merely a tool to help the powerful rule the weak.

Does this mean that throughout human history from the beginning of mankind, each and every person without one possible exception, is only interested in God because of the power it may give them over other people ?

Secondly, does "power" hungry religion prove that there is no God ?
Third, does "power over people" religion prove that Jesus is not Son of God?

Fourth, does "power over people" religion prove that without exception, each and every congregation of believers seeking to live unto God corporately, are only interested in power over weak people or are under the power seeking religionists ?

Originally posted by josephw
I'm not the one that's denying what the Word says. I know Jesus is The Way. But you seem to be afraid of the rest of scripture outside the so-called Gospels.

I know why you can't reconcile Peter with Paul.

And don't be offended. I did't say YOU were a hypocrite. All I'm saying is it sounded hypocritical when you said you choose to place one portion of ...[text shortened]... e. That's why there are so many different interpretations and denominations. Men get in the way.

I dont buy any of that. It is perfectly correct to place the teachings of Christ above the rest of scripture. The Word of God says that. The Word of God tells you that the teachings of Christ is sufficient for eternal life.

I suspect it is you that seem to be afraid of Christ teachings. Many people went away sorrowful when Christ taught his gospel. Many people grabbed on to the teachings of Paul and the Apostles which sounded like a walk in the park .. ie confess with your mouth that you believe in Christ and you will be saved. Anyone can do that and continue to live their same old fleshly life. However thats half the story. The other half is the problem.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont buy any of that. It is perfectly correct to place the teachings of Christ above the rest of scripture. The Word of God says that. The Word of God tells you that the teachings of Christ is sufficient for eternal life.

I suspect it is you that seem to be afraid of Christ teachings. Many people went away sorrowful when Christ taught his gospel. Many p ...[text shortened]... o live their same old fleshly life. However thats half the story. The other half is the problem.

"The other half is the problem."

The whole problem is sin. The sin issue was resolved in whole at the cross.

No one doesn't sin, even after they are saved. No one!

So then how do you reconcile that Rajk? According to your theology if one is saved they can then lose their salvation if they sin again, and everyone continues to sin after they are saved. Therefore, according to your theology, everyone loses their salvation, and no one gets saved!

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"The other half is the problem."

The whole problem is sin. The sin issue was resolved in whole at the cross.

No one doesn't sin, even after they are saved. No one!

So then how do you reconcile that Rajk? According to your theology if one is saved they can then lose their salvation if they sin again, and everyone continues to sin after they a ...[text shortened]... d. Therefore, according to your theology, everyone loses their salvation, and no one gets saved![/b]

I have nothing to reconcile. I have no theology. The Bible speaks for itself. The problem seems to be yours.

Im happy with what the Bible says. I hope you are as well.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have nothing to reconcile. I have no theology. The Bible speaks for itself. The problem seems to be yours.

Im happy with what the Bible says. I hope you are as well.

What does salvation mean to you? When you speak of it, what do you mean
when you say that word? How does it work, for people who come to God? How
do you of course read the scripture as it relates to people and God. Please
give us how you think God's gift to man works. How can sinners be saved or
can they?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What does salvation mean to you? When you speak of it, what do you mean
when you say that word? How does it work, for people who come to God? How
do you of course read the scripture as it relates to people and God. Please
give us how you think God's gift to man works. How can sinners be saved or
can they?
Kelly

One question at a time. You say your answer as well. Unless you are conducting an interview rather than discussing.

Salvation for me means two things. One is that Christ died for me, that is paid the price for my past sins. The other is that it gave me an opportunity to get eternal life at some point .. when Christ returns, provided I have walked in the Spirit rather than in the flesh, lived righteously and followed the commandments of Christ as best as I can.

What is your answer to the same question.

Originally posted by Rajk999
One question at a time. You say your answer as well. Unless you are conducting an interview rather than discussing.

Salvation for me means two things. One is that Christ died for me, that is paid the price for my past sins. The other is that it gave me an opportunity to get eternal life at some point .. when Christ returns, provided I have walked in the S ...[text shortened]... llowed the commandments of Christ as best as I can.

What is your answer to the same question.

As I have told you a number of times, I do believe I agree with you with
much of what you say. Christ paid for my sins, the Holy Spirit came so that
we can live by the Spirit and not the flesh. I do however do not for one
moment think I can live a good enough life to earn God's salvation. It was all
done by God for me *us*, that work was done by Jesus Christ. I can take
no credit for all the good I do, I would not even attempt to do good beyond
what I think is good, if not for God. So it is a matter of following God's Spirit
which includes doing what the Word teaches me. There is no best I can to
live righteously to earn God's grace, there is only obeying because He is our Lord.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I have told you a number of times, I do believe I agree with you with
much of what you say. Christ paid for my sins, the Holy Spirit came so that
we can live by the Spirit and not the flesh. I do however do not for one
moment think I can live a good enough life to earn God's salvation. It was all
done by God for me *us*, that work was done by Jesus ...[text shortened]... n to
live righteously to earn God's grace, there is only obeying because He is our Lord.
Kelly

This is the difference. You judge yourself and sometimes others by saying:
- IM SAVED !
- I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
- iI CANNOT LOSE IT ETC ETC.

[Not necessarily you say all these, but many Christians in general] To me these things are up to God and God/Christ will judge on the last day.

My attitude is different. I recognize that my eternal life is up to Gods grace and eternal life, I will only receive in the end after judgment [whenever that is], IF I am found worthy. So doing ones best is critical [opposite of what you said]. Obviously your doctrine leads to a kind of a 'lazy Christian' attitude that is not in keeping with what Christ preached.

So this part of your post I agree with :

Christ paid for my sins, the Holy Spirit came so that
we can live by the Spirit and not the flesh.

The rest of what you wrote allthough basically correct I dont even think along those lines or bother saying it, as that is up to God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This is the difference. You judge yourself and sometimes others by saying:
- IM SAVED !
- I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
- iI CANNOT LOSE IT ETC ETC.

[Not necessarily you say all these, but many Christians in general] To me these things are up to God and God/Christ will judge on the last day.

My attitude is different. I recognize that my eternal life is up t ...[text shortened]... basically correct I dont even think along those lines or bother saying it, as that is up to God.

Just stick with what I said.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
This is the difference. You judge yourself and sometimes others by saying:
- IM SAVED !
- I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
- iI CANNOT LOSE IT ETC ETC.

[Not necessarily you say all these, but many Christians in general] To me these things are up to God and God/Christ will judge on the last day.

My attitude is different. I recognize that my eternal life is up t ...[text shortened]... basically correct I dont even think along those lines or bother saying it, as that is up to God.

So you don't think getting God's Spirit means you are right with God?
Kelly