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Originally posted by Conrau KMaybe THinkOfOne is progressing just a little bit. He says many think Paul contradicted. This of course is not Paul's fault. Is it?
Could you give the quotes?
Perhaps ThinkOfOne is admitting that it is a misunderstanding of Pauline teaching which is a problem and not Pauline teaching itself.
That would be progress from the last time we debated this "Paul Verses Jesus" argument.
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Originally posted by epiphinehasHow is it an intelligent man like you cannot see flaw in this statement is beyond me.
.... Therefore, the proper interpretation of scripture goes like this: those saved by grace through faith know they have eternal life when, through faith in Christ, they overcome sin and do good works. Overcoming sin and doing good works are fruits of the Spirit - the Spirit which is given to all those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God....
How can anyone KNOW that they are saved when their salvation depends on their ability to "...overcome sin and do good works". Can a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOW that for the next 40 years he will "...overcome sin and do good works"?
When are youall going to stop twisting Paul's teachings?
Originally posted by Rajk999Using your theology, I assume you have a magic number of "good" words that save you? In addition, what about an atheist who has "good" works? Are they saved merely because of their "good" works?
How is it an intelligent man like you cannot see flaw in this statement is beyond me.
How can anyone KNOW that they are saved when their salvation depends on their ability to "...overcome sin and do good works". Can a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOW that for the next 40 years he will "...overcome sin and do good works"?
When are youall going to stop twisting Paul's teachings?
Originally posted by whodeyDo you think your two foolish questions void my comment?
Using your theology, I assume you have a magic number of "good" words that save you? In addition, what about an atheist who has "good" works? Are they saved merely because of their "good" works?
The Bible says nothing about any 'magic' number of good works. Why do you need a number of works. Is'nt what Christ said good enough? He said do good works. Of what relevance is a 'number' of good works? Of what relevance are the those who dont believe in God to this discussion? Also I said nothing about being saved only becuase of good works.
So answer my question if you can :
Can a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOW that for the next 40 years he will "...overcome sin and do good works"?
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Originally posted by Rajk999Christianity is a walk with Christ. Therefore, I believe they will naturally follow. If the person in question you present stops walking with Christ, for whatever reason, then their "good" works will probably stop as well. Now as to whether they are then still then "saved" or not, I will let God make the call, not me. Of course your biggest obstacle to your theology is the thief that died on the cross next to Christ. I suppose you could only argue that he was really saved before going to the cross, therefore, he had done good works in order to be saved before he died with Christ on the cross. In addition, you have the theology of the OT to contend with. Abraham was said to be righteous because of his FAITH in God, it says nothing about "good" works. Faith is the cornerstone of the God of the Bible. Without it, you have NO salvation. It then comes down to believing what he has said and believing that he has said them. Then when you follow what God has commanded us to follow "good" works should naturally follow.
Do you think your two foolish questions void my comment?
The Bible says nothing about any 'magic' number of good works. Why do you need a number of works. Is'nt what Christ said good enough? He said do good works. Of what relevance is a 'number' of good works? Of what relevance are the those who dont believe in God to this discussion? Also I said nothing ...[text shortened]... n Christian, KNOW that for the next 40 years he will "...overcome sin and do good works"?
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Originally posted by epiphinehas"Therefore, the proper interpretation of scripture goes like this: those saved by grace through faith know they have eternal life when, through faith in Christ, they overcome sin and do good works. Overcoming sin and doing good works are fruits of the Spirit - the Spirit which is given to all those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
You see, ThinkOfOne, this is a perfect example of a contradiction in scripture which alludes to a deeper truth.
The Bible contains passages which proclaim that we are saved by grace (and that by faith). The definition of grace is "unmerited favor." Favor unmerited is favor gained without striving or accomplishment. Apparently, according to the Bibl lieve in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Contradiction isn't a sign of incoherency.
What of those who believe they are "saved by grace through faith" but never overcome sin, i.e. continue to commit sin? Are you saying that they don't "genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God" and therefore aren't "saved".
Originally posted by whodeyWith your voluminous Lutheran words, all that you have really said in answer to my question :
Christianity is a walk with Christ. Therefore, I believe they will naturally follow. If the person in question you present stops walking with Christ, for whatever reason, then their "good" works will probably stop as well. Now as to whether they are then still then "saved" or not, I will let God make the call, not me. Of course your biggest obstacle to yo ...[text shortened]... hen you follow what God has commanded us to follow "good" works should naturally follow.
Can a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOW that for the next 40 years he will "...overcome sin and do good works"?
... is NO he cannot.
Thanks for your reply.
Originally posted by whodeyLike I said, true repentance entails a transformation to righteousness. Even if they claim or even believe that they "love God" and have "intention of turning from that sin", they have not repented, but have only attempted to repent.
What I am saying is that the love for God helps determine if someone is truly repentant.
I agree that if someone "repents" they are doing so with the intention of turning from that sin. However, I also recognize human weakness when trying to overcome sin. For example, someone who abuses drugs may have the intention of turning from their drug abuse but ...[text shortened]... not transpiring according to his liking. Its just a guess but that is the way I see things.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWho are these "they" you keep talking about?
Like I said, true repentance entails a transformation to righteousness. Even if they claim or even believe that they "love God" and have "intention of turning from that sin", they have not repented, but have only attempted to repent.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWho are these Christians?
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it imposs ...[text shortened]... word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.
etc.
How many are they? If you provide an estimate, on what do you base this estimate on?
Why do you chose them as representative of Christianity?
Is this applicable to all branches of Christianity?
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Originally posted by PalynkaAre you making this more difficult than it is? "These Christians" are those described in the post. Read through the thread and you'll see several. I have no estimate. Don't read too much into the thread title. It's just a vague description of the topic.
Who are these Christians?
How many are they? If you provide an estimate, on what do you base this estimate on?
Why do you chose them as representative of Christianity?
Is this applicable to all branches of Christianity?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAnd you think that the sample here is representative of Christians, a population estimated to be over 1 billion?
Are you making this more difficult than it is? "These Christians" are those described in the post. Read through the thread and you'll see several. I have no estimate.
If you want to debate an imaginary image of Christianity, then go ahead. But if you want to discuss this meaningfully, then you have to answer the questions above.
I know it's difficult. "They" are probably not as much as you think they are, not even close.
Originally posted by PalynkaLike I said, don't read too much into the thread title.
And you think that the sample here is representative of Christians, a population estimated to be over 1 billion?
If you want to debate an imaginary image of Christianity, then go ahead. But if you want to discuss this meaningfully, then you have to answer the questions above.
I know it's difficult. "They" are probably not as much as you think they are, not even close.