Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who continue to commit sin'. Jesus teaches that one cannot continue to commit sin and have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". However, past sins will be forgiven.
I don't construe 'workers of unrighteousness' as equivalent with the
good person who occasionally sins and regrets it. Given Jesus' teaching
on forgiveness, I'd wager that my interpretation is closer to His than yours.
Jesus then explains that those who continue to commit sin will be told to depart, just as he does in John 8:34-35, "...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;...". The slave gets turned away at the door. In John 8:32, Jesus explains that one doesn't have to remain a slave, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
This address was made to 'fair-weather' Jewish followers, the ones who
later strove to stone Him before He departed from the Temple. Again,
like above, I believe that the notion of 'committing sin' pertains to those
who knowingly and unrepentingly commits sin. And, again, the prevalence
of instruction on forgiveness seems to testify to the notion that Jesus
realized that His believers would falter along the way.
Nemesio
Originally posted by black beetleNo , I think that God's grace is active anywhere and everywhere that men do genuine good. Love and compassion are not owned by Christians at all. God will work amongst Christians and non-Christians alike , he will use non-Christians to further his kingdom even though they may not realise it. That's the whole point of being a Chriatian , you wake up to the fact that God was always there all the time , it's just that you were too busy and too prideful to notice him.
Interesting.
By the Way, are we capable or incapable to follow the true path to compassion without your god's grace? Or one has to be "truly born by God" Christian in order to become "graced"?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNot at all. I'm taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who continue to commit sin'. Jesus teaches that one cannot continue to commit sin and have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". However, past sins will be forgiven. ----ToO---------
[b]"You are taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who have ever worked a single act of iniquity.' '"
Not at all. I'm taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who continue to commit sin'. Jesus teaches that one cannot continue to commit sin and have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". However, past sins will be for ...[text shortened]... ine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."[/b]
It's strange then that Jesus teaches his followers the Lord's prayer which includes a section where we are to ask God for forgiveness of sins on an on-going basis. This prayer was intended to be a regular feature of his followers prayer lives. If you are right in what you say the section "forgives us our trespasses" should not be in there at all.
Curious eh? You have never to my knowledge had anything to say about this. Maybe if you keep ignoring it it will go away?
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo God swipes all the credit for the good I do, Satan get the credit for the bad, both are essentially deceiving me. What happened to free will?
No , I think that God's grace is active anywhere and everywhere that men do genuine good. Love and compassion are not owned by Christians at all. God will work amongst Christians and non-Christians alike , he will use non-Christians to further his kingdom even though they may not realise it. That's the whole point of being a Chriatian , you wake up to ...[text shortened]... always there all the time , it's just that you were too busy and too prideful to notice him.
And what is 'genuine good' anyway? If it is truly genuine good then isn't God duty bound to ensure that it happens?
Originally posted by NemesioAgain,
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I'm taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who continue to commit sin'. Jesus teaches that one cannot continue to commit sin and have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". However, past sins will be forgiven.
I don't construe 'workers of unrighteousness' as equivalent with the
good person ...[text shortened]... sus
realized that His believers would falter along the way.
Nemesio[/b]
like above, I believe that the notion of 'committing sin' pertains to those
who knowingly and unrepentingly commits sin. And, again, the prevalence
of instruction on forgiveness seems to testify to the notion that Jesus
realized that His believers would falter along the way.
--------nemesio----------------------
Absolutely spot on Neme. Not only did he realise it , they actually did (eg Peter's denial) . Did Peter get locked out of heaven because of this ?
Originally posted by twhiteheadNo , you get some credit for participating in God's grace and activity , but even so you would not be able to participate at all unless God granted you the opportunity.
So God swipes all the credit for the good I do, Satan get the credit for the bad, both are essentially deceiving me. What happened to free will?
And what is 'genuine good' anyway? If it is truly genuine good then isn't God duty bound to ensure that it happens?
Genuine good is when it's heartfelt and loving. For example a celebrity who gives a bundle of dosh to some poor African village in order to further their career or create a photo opportunity then in God's eyes it's not genuine goodness.
Originally posted by knightmeisterFair enough, KM dude.
No , I think that God's grace is active anywhere and everywhere that men do genuine good. Love and compassion are not owned by Christians at all. God will work amongst Christians and non-Christians alike , he will use non-Christians to further his kingdom even though they may not realise it. That's the whole point of being a Chriatian , you wake up to ...[text shortened]... always there all the time , it's just that you were too busy and too prideful to notice him.
So your god accepts me although I choose freely to refuse his existence and I deny the authority of the scriptures due to the fact that I am a man of true virtue, although I am not a "truly born in God" Christian and therefore my spirit is invaded by the Antichrist, as epiphenehas quoted earlier in another thread?
Originally posted by Nemesio"I don't construe 'workers of unrighteousness' as equivalent with the good person who occasionally sins and regrets it. Given Jesus' teaching on forgiveness, I'd wager that my interpretation is closer to His than yours."
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I'm taking 'you who work iniquity' as congruent with 'you who continue to commit sin'. Jesus teaches that one cannot continue to commit sin and have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". However, past sins will be forgiven.
I don't construe 'workers of unrighteousness' as equivalent with the
good person sus
realized that His believers would falter along the way.
Nemesio[/b]
If that is what Jesus meant, why did He not just say so? So far as I know Jesus never said, "The occasional sin is okay, so long as you express regret". Was He such a poor teacher so as to omit such an important concept? The idea that past sins would be forgiven is not forgiving enough for you? It must also include continuing unrighteousness? When is recurring sin no longer "occasional"?
What do you believe is the minimum requirement to have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation"?
"This address was made to 'fair-weather' Jewish followers, the ones who later strove to stone Him before He departed from the Temple."
This argument has never made any sense to me. Are you saying that you believe that Jesus would tell one group one thing and another group another? Was he a liar or is there a different truth depending on on the audience?
" Again, like above, I believe that the notion of 'committing sin' pertains to those who knowingly and unrepentingly commits sin."
Are you confusing repentance and remorse? If someone truly repents, he does not repeat the sin.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesBut the argument A & not-A therefore P is problematic and many schools of logic do in some way reject the law of non-contradiction so that this argument can be invalidated. For starters, relevance logics makes some important criticisms of just that argument form itself:
Please. What's the point in arguing with somebody who doesn't accept the law of non-contradiction?
Suppose the truth of proposition P is in question -- you believe P and he believes Not-P. Suppose you now demonstrate via a valid proof from mutually accepted axioms that P. Then he's just going to say, "So what? That has no bearing on the truth of Not-P." What good can possibly come of such an exercise?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-relevance/
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirst, I did not say it was impossible for anyone to be free from sin. I said or implied that it is difficult for most people to be sinless.
[/i]Where do you get the idea that it is impossible for anyone to be made free from commiting sin?
Jesus teaches that one can be made free from committing sin. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "[b]If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will early states that by continuing in His word, one will be made free from committing sin.[/b]
Second, there is an obvious danger of reading only one portion of the teachings of Christ and making conclusions therefrom. Just look at 'once saved always saved' clan. They zero in on a few verses and ignore all the teachings of Christ regarding the importance of loving thy neighbour.
Finally the same Christ said to ask for forgiveness and your sins will be forgiven. How many times will He forgive our sins? The answer is how many times are we admonished to forgive our brother his sins? Infinitely .. 70x7.
Yes ...I agree ..."that by continuing in His word, one will be made free from committing sin." And that should be our goal.
Originally posted by epiphinehasDid Nemesio say that a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOWS that for the next 40 years he will overcome sin and do good works?
[b]In order not to revisit this a third time: Bible-backed theology will maintain that salvation
cannot be earned, but that it is an undeserved gift given by God. This gift is given to those
people of faith. People of faith, among other things, are people who do works
This statement I've highlighted (by Nemesio) should end the grace v. works debate.
EDIT: Lord willing...[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If that is what Jesus meant, why did He not just say so? So far as I know Jesus never said, "The occasional sin is okay, so long as you express regret". Was He such a poor teacher so as to omit such an important concept?
If Jesus meant that utter sinlessness was the only standard by which a believer would be deemed
'faithful,' why didn't He say that? Was He such a poor teacher as to omit such an important concept?
The idea that past sins would be forgiven is not forgiving enough for you? It must also include continuing unrighteousness? When is recurring sin no longer "occasional"?
I believe that Jesus understood that people, despite their best efforts, will occasionally sin. I
believe that Jesus, who acknowledge the great faith of St Peter and yet observed his failing to
always observe that great faith, forgave him every single time St Peter asked for forgiveness
in earnest.
What do you believe is the minimum requirement to have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation"?
I believe that a Biblically sound answer is 'God's grace.' How does one obtain God's grace?
One doesn't 'obtain' it, s/he receives it as a gift, undeserved. Who gets this undeserved gift?
People of faith. Who are people of faith? People who follow God's commands. What are
God's commands? Love God and love your neighbor? How do you love your neighbor? By
being charitable.
It's that simple, if you follow Jesus' teachings.
This argument has never made any sense to me. Are you saying that you believe that Jesus would tell one group one thing and another group another? Was he a liar or is there a different truth depending on on the audience?
You misunderstood the point of my observation. The people who were listening to him were
people who had not come to believe. They may have been following Jesus commands, but their
intent was not to attend to the needy, but to glorify themselves. This is why Jesus told them
that they
were slaves to sin. Obviously, this teaching would apply to any other person who is a slave to
sin.
This teaching would not apply to true Disciples because they, although they might continue to
fail from time to time, have the right disposition towards their action, the one that strives to
glorify God and not themselves and that admits to and repents of their sin when they should
unfortunately forget their calling.
Are you confusing repentance and remorse? If someone truly repents, he does not repeat the sin.
I don't tend to confuse different words, or haven't you noticed? The word 'repent' means to
'rethink.' If they repent of a particular sin, what they are doing is recognizing how their action
did not reflect loving attitude towards God or their neighbor. That doesn't necessarily mean
that, when faced with a similar situation will be strong enough or intuitive enough or wise enough
to avoid it in the future. However, repentance certainly helps to build strength, intuition and
wisdom in order to minimize it in the future.
Nemesio
Originally posted by Rajk999Nemesio would never use the word 'born again' to describe a Biblically sound theological framework
Did Nemesio say that a 30 yr old born again Christian, KNOWS that for the next 40 years he will overcome sin and do good works?
because those words are the product of a poor translation. Nemesio has only used the words
'born again' in responses to people who use those translations in an effort to help them see how
such a translation is a poor one.
Nemesio would further contend that all persons of faith strive to do as many good works as their
particular circumstances and abilities permit as outward demonstrations of their faith. Nemesio
would also claim that a person of faith would strive to avoid sin, although he would also recognize
that no person can possibly avoid sin in every circumstance irrespective of the depth and
magnitude of their faith.
Nemesio