Originally posted by knightmeisterI know the question was rhetorical. It also shows a lack of understanding.
The question was of course rhetorical.
What I am getting at is whether a man is expected to move from unrighteouessness to 100% obedience in one moment. Surely it's a process. A man who steps out in faith will walk those first steps tentatively and will make mistakes. His faith will be fragile. But it will still be faith. He cannot wait to be perfe ...[text shortened]... o be a perfect mountain climber swinging from crvice to crevice before he can claim salvation?
"What I am getting at is whether a man is expected to move from unrighteouessness to 100% obedience in one moment. Surely it's a process. "
Of course it's a process. I never said it wasn't . However one does not truly have "faith" until one becomes "faithful".
"If Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains then why cant it save also?"
Evidently it wouldn't take much "faith" to stop commiting acts of sin, would it?
Instead it seems you can only look at it from the perspective of what you "get".
Originally posted by Rajk999It is a demonstration of our belief without which we cannot get salvation.----rajk----
Being saved by grace means that we do not deserve to have Christ die on the cross for us. His death is a free gift of God to all men who choose to accept him, and if we accept him and believe then we have a chance of getting salvation.
How can you take that to mean that all we have to do is believe and we will be saved? Both Christ and Paul spoke at lengt ...[text shortened]... orks is not optional. It is a demonstration of our belief without which we cannot get salvation.
You miss the point entirely. Do you think God needs a demonstration? Of course not , he already knows if your faith is genuine or not. He already knows all the works you are going to perform before you die!!!!!
Stop looking at it from a worldy perspective.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneEvidently it wouldn't take much "faith" to stop commiting acts of sin, would it?===ToO==========
I know the question was rhetorical. It also shows a lack of understanding.
[b]"What I am getting at is whether a man is expected to move from unrighteouessness to 100% obedience in one moment. Surely it's a process. "
Of course it's a process. I never said it wasn't . However one does not truly have "faith" until one becomes "faithful".
"I ...[text shortened]... Instead it seems you can only look at it from the perspective of what you "get".
You would have to define sin properly in order for me to answer that one. Are you talking theoretically , hypothetically or from expereince here?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOf course it's a process. I never said it wasn't . However one does not truly have "faith" until one becomes "faithful". --------ToO----------
I know the question was rhetorical. It also shows a lack of understanding.
[b]"What I am getting at is whether a man is expected to move from unrighteouessness to 100% obedience in one moment. Surely it's a process. "
Of course it's a process. I never said it wasn't . However one does not truly have "faith" until one becomes "faithful".
"I ...[text shortened]... Instead it seems you can only look at it from the perspective of what you "get".
Define "faithful" . Was Simon Peter "faithful"? Was the thief on the cross "faithful"?
What is "true faith" as well?
Would God know the difference between someone who has "true faith" or "untrue faith"? Could he know this without them having to overcome sin to prove it?
Originally posted by knightmeisterChrist said go and do good works in order to get salvation.
It is a demonstration of our belief without which we cannot get salvation.----rajk----
You miss the point entirely. Do you think God needs a demonstration? Of course not , he already knows if your faith is genuine or not. He already knows all the works you are going to perform before you die!!!!!
Stop looking at it from a worldy perspective.
He said feed the hungry, and you get salvation.
He said give of your self unselfishly in the service of others and you get salvation.
None of your twisting of scripture can change what Christ said.
As long as you sleep well at night knowing that you dont believe in what Christ taught, I guess thats the important thing for you.
Originally posted by NemesioWhat if the person has no time to do any "works"?
No one is disputing this. Grace is a gift from God. It is not earned.
Works do not beget grace.
However, the idea that grace is bestowed on someone whose faith is
dead (someone who does not commit works) is not Biblically sound.
Do you see the difference?
Nemesio
Originally posted by PinkFloydYou mean like how in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest and the Levite did not have time to help the dying man?
What if the person has no time to do any "works"?
Or do you mean like in Matt 25, Christ was hungry and thirsty, sick, naked and YOU did not have time to help Him ?
Matt 25:42 For I was an hungered, and Pinky gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and Pinky gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and Pinky took me not in: naked, and Pinky clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and Pinky visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when Pinky saw thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as Pinky did it not to one of the least of these, Pinky did it not to me.
46 And Pinky shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Originally posted by Rajk999I mean like a person converted on their deathbed.
You mean like how in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest and the Levite did not have time to help the dying man?
Or do you mean like in Matt 25, Christ was hungry and thirsty, sick, naked and YOU did not have time to help Him ?
Matt 25:42 For I was an hungered, and Pinky gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and Pinky gave me no drink:
43 I was a ...[text shortened]... .
46 And Pinky shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Originally posted by NemesioI guess the word "prefer" was a poor word of choice. What I should have said was what I know to parallel scriptural teaching. Mankind will not be praised in the end, rather, only God. All glory belongs to God so how is this possible if we then "earn" our salvation?
[b]As a believer, it's not about what you 'prefer.' If you believe that all
that is Scripture is God-breathed and useful for instruction, you can't
just discard St James because you don't 'prefer' it.
Again, what of the thief who died next to Christ on the cross? What good works did he provide to earn favor for salvation?
Originally posted by knightmeisterOdd then that he spent so much time and effort testing the faith of Old Testament characters.
You miss the point entirely. Do you think God needs a demonstration? Of course not , he already knows if your faith is genuine or not. He already knows all the works you are going to perform before you die!!!!!
Stop looking at it from a worldy perspective.
So why does God want people to go around helping others? Clearly it is not because he genuinely thinks that those 'others' require help or he would help them out himself.