Christianity: Obstacle to reason?

Originally posted by Nemesio
He's saying an outward manifestation of that faith 'placed in Christ's
sacrifice...' is works; that, someone's claim to having faith, in the
absence of works, is a false claim.

How hard is this to conceive?

Nemesio

I see. I am not attempting to argue, rather, I am merely trying to understand.

As for myself, I prefer Paul's theology that we are not saved by grace least any man should boast. I believe that ALL glory belongs to where all things first arose which is our Creator.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Put the words of Jesus in context:
John 6:39-40
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

This le ...[text shortened]... er who is in heaven"

One doesn't truly "believe" if one doesn't "obey".[/b]

Very good point. In essence you are saying that belief is not really belief unless it's accompanied by action. If a man says he believes that a rope is there and will hold his weight but refuses to let go of grasping the mountainside then we could question his belief. Similarly , if a man says he believes in his driving instructor but will not obey what he says then we can question his so called belief.

My point is that jaywill , ephin , myself , we all know this truth and have known it for years. It's not new.

However.....

Should we wait until we think that we can obey perfectly first before attempting any faith/belief?

My thoughts are that maybe we should grow in faith/ belief and obedience as we go. The man who tests the rope tentatively cannot be said to be "without belief". The man who listens to his instructor and tries (and fails) is still showing faith and belief in him and is on the path to becoming a driver. The other man will learn eventually to let go of the rockface. They are both on the path to salvation and both saved by their faith.

Obedience is a matter of the heart , and not neccessarily about outcomes. A man who tries to follow Christ but messes up 90% of the time may well be showing more faith than someone else who seems to be doing much better but for whom the process is much easier.

Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains , so I see no reason why God cannot save on the basis of a faith that is a work in progress.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Both faith and good works are required for salvation.

Not faith alone.
Not works alone.
Proclaiming faith does not mean good works automaticlly follow as you childishly think.

So please stop wasting everybody's time with your silly arguments.

Faith alone can save because true faith will be followed by action. It's inevitable.

Do you really think that God has to "wait" until a person does "good works" before he realises that their faith is genuine? He knows already if a person is trying to cheat him with cheap words. You may cheat the whole world but you can't cheat God.

You seem to imagine that God can't see into a person's heart and judge their level of committment. Duh? Wake up and smell the coffee !

He can see the future remember and he already knows the good works they will do , so it's entirely logical that he can grant salvation at the point of faith alone. Indeed , it's only the fact that he saves and makes us good that allows works anyway. The anti- grace brigade always seem to get the cart and horse mixed up. God is the horse and we are the cart . Unless he saves , we cannot do works because he is the source of all good works. Salvation is required for works NOT works are required for salvation.

Try looking at it from His angle and not your impoverished human perspective.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I notice people like to ask questions like this... questions that have no biblical answer.
There is no minimum or maximum or qualifying works frequency.
The expression 'works frequency' (or similar expression) does not appear in the bible.
Your works could be zero or as voluminous as Mother Theresa, it is Christ that will judge how well you have performed according to the talents you were given.

I guess the problem I see is with someone who "does works" but continues to sin.

Jesus addresses this as follows:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Clearly those who continue to commit sin are not accepted even though they may do many might works.

Originally posted by whodey
I see. I am not attempting to argue, rather, I am merely trying to understand.

As for myself, I prefer Paul's theology that we are not saved by grace least any man should boast. I believe that ALL glory belongs to where all things first arose which is our Creator.

Being saved by grace means that we do not deserve to have Christ die on the cross for us. His death is a free gift of God to all men who choose to accept him, and if we accept him and believe then we have a chance of getting salvation.

How can you take that to mean that all we have to do is believe and we will be saved? Both Christ and Paul spoke at length about good works. Good works is not optional. It is a demonstration of our belief without which we cannot get salvation.

Originally posted by whodey
As for myself, I prefer Paul's theology that we are not saved by grace least any man should boast. I believe that ALL glory belongs to where all things first arose which is our Creator.

As a believer, it's not about what you 'prefer.' If you believe that all
that is Scripture is God-breathed and useful for instruction, you can't
just discard St James because you don't 'prefer' it.

And no one is talking about boasting.

It's about what 'faith' is. Faith is not merely a verbal profession, but a
lifestyle, as it were.

For example, person X says, 'I have faith,' and you ask, 'Oh really?
What do mean?' and X says, 'Well God loves me, and I love Him, but
that Jesus guy was a crackpot and everything He said was crap.' Would
you say that this is a Biblically informed faith? Of course you wouldn't.

Sure, X has a faith of some sort, but it's not the faith described by the
authors of the Bible.

Similarly, if people want to claim that they can have a living faith and
not feed the hungry, then, yes, they have some sort of faith, but not a
faith described by the authors of the Bible.

It's really that simple.

Do works save? No. St James didn't believe that, and clearly neither did
St Paul. What they did believe that someone who will not do works simply
cannot be a person of faith, despite any of their claims to the contrary.

And this notion concords with the teachings of Jesus as articulated by
the authors of the Gospel.

Nemesio

Originally posted by knightmeister
Very good point. In essence you are saying that belief is not really belief unless it's accompanied by action. If a man says he believes that a rope is there and will hold his weight but refuses to let go of grasping the mountainside then we could question his belief. Similarly , if a man says he believes in his driving instructor but will not obey wha ...[text shortened]... , so I see no reason why God cannot save on the basis of a faith that is a work in progress.

My post was in response to jaywill's assertion that the verse he cited shows that Jesus taught that "Eternal salvation once obtained through faith can never be revoked." The verse he cited shows nothing of the kind.

"Should we wait until we think that we can obey perfectly first before attempting any faith/belief?"

That you ask this question only shows a lack of understanding. Why would anyone try to obey what they don't believe in?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess the problem I see is with someone who "does works" but continues to sin.

Jesus addresses this as follows:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your ...[text shortened]... e who continue to commit sin are not accepted even though they may do many might works.

I understand this dilema you have.
I have seen many of your posts explaining this issue and to my mind, this is an area that only Christ can judge. All mankind sin. So if your interpretation is correct then there will be nobody in the kingdom.

Look as these verses :

1PET 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

JAMES 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Clearly by doing good works, our sins are cancelled, covered, hidden ... however you want to say it.

Reference is made also to 'the balance' or 'the scales' or 'the book of life' from which we will be judged. Again the idea is the same. We are expected to sin (because of our frail nature) and we are commanded to do good works (to show our love for Christ).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

That's because prophesying, casting out demons, and other mighty works
do not constitute the love of neighbor Jesus describes. Jesus was
illustrating that these ostensibly powerful actions aren't what Jesus was
looking for in a faithful individual (not that such actions exclude them).
These actions to not demonstrate love, just power.

Becoming the servant of the cripple, the leper, the widow: these things --
things which people frowned upon, things for which people were chastised,
things which carried social stigma -- these things are demonstrations of
love.

'Who is the greatest disciple?' Jesus was asked. The Disciples still had
a flawed view of 'greatness.' They wanted power, status, signficance,
and recognition -- sitting at Jesus' right and left hands. Jesus said that
greatness lies in service, through sacrifice, through the denying of self
for the good of the dregs of society.

The passage you cited addresses this, not the idea that one who sins
cannot be saved.

Nemesio

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Therefore, the proper interpretation of scripture goes like this: those saved by grace through faith know they have eternal life when, through faith in Christ, they overcome sin and do good works. Overcoming sin and doing good works are fruits of the Spirit - the Spirit which is given to all those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. ...[text shortened]... on't "genuinely believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God" and therefore aren't "saved".

Can you define what "overcoming sin" actually means in practice? It's a term you have used many times but have never adequately defined it as far as I can see.

Does , for example , overcoming sin mean that such an individual never ever loses their temper for even one second? Does it mean that such an individual is 100% free of any bad thoughts towards others and is always completely full of compassion? I could go on , but you see my point.

Until you define what "transformation" , "overcoming sin" etc actually mean to you then no-one will have any idea whether you are talking about the same thing as they are.

At best "overcoming sin" is a woolly abstract statement that is intellectually lazy.

Originally posted by knightmeister
... Do you really think that God has to "wait" until a person does "good works" before he realises that their faith is genuine? ....

God can see if someone's faith is genuine,

You cannot.
Your pastor cannot.
Martin Luther cannot.
Nobody can except God.

You wake up and smell the garbage you people write.

If only God can see whose faith is genuine, then ONLY GOD CAN SAY WHO IS SAVED.
But that is not what happens. According to you and your fellow Protestants all born again Christians are saved and they cannot loose their salvation.

Did they contact God to find out who is saved ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I understand this dilema you have.
I have seen many of your posts explaining this issue and to my mind, this is an area that only Christ can judge. All mankind sin. So if your interpretation is correct then there will be nobody in the kingdom.

Look as these verses :

[i]1PET 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity s of our frail nature) and we are commanded to do good works (to show our love for Christ).

[/i]Where do you get the idea that it is impossible for anyone to be made free from commiting sin?

Jesus teaches that one can be made free from committing sin. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Jesus clearly states that by continuing in His word, one will be made free from committing sin.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
My post was in response to jaywill's assertion that the verse he cited shows that Jesus taught that "Eternal salvation once obtained through faith can never be revoked." The verse he cited shows nothing of the kind.

[b]"Should we wait until we think that we can obey perfectly first before attempting any faith/belief?"

That you ask this question ...[text shortened]... ly shows a lack of understanding. Why would anyone try to obey what they don't believe in?[/b]

The question was of course rhetorical.

What I am getting at is whether a man is expected to move from unrighteouessness to 100% obedience in one moment. Surely it's a process. A man who steps out in faith will walk those first steps tentatively and will make mistakes. His faith will be fragile. But it will still be faith. He cannot wait to be perfect before he is saved and a just God would not expect him to be either.

If Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains then why cant it save also?

Look around you , the process of beliefs changing and resulting in changed behaviour is mostly a gradual process in human beings. The man who tentatively reaches out for the rope is showing the first signs of faith. If God says that's enough to save someone then who are you to say that he has to be a perfect mountain climber swinging from crvice to crevice before he can claim salvation?

Originally posted by Nemesio
That's because prophesying, casting out demons, and other mighty works
do not constitute the love of neighbor Jesus describes. Jesus was
illustrating that these ostensibly powerful actions aren't what Jesus was
looking for in a faithful individual (not that such actions exclude them).
These actions to not demonstrate love, just power.
...[text shortened]... age you cited addresses this, not the idea that one who sins
cannot be saved.

Nemesio

Are you saying that doing "the will of my Father who is in heaven" includes commiting acts of sin?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[/i]Where do you get the idea that it is impossible for anyone to be made free from commiting sin?

Jesus teaches that one can be made free from committing sin. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "[b]If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will ...[text shortened]... early states that by continuing in His word, one will be made free from committing sin.

0nce again , define "free from committing sin" . What does it mean in practice?

Jesus also taught us that part of the daily prayer for his followers should involve a neccessary request for forgiveness from sin from God. (forgive us our trespasses) This of course logically contradicts your position.

So do you think Jesus was wrong?

(the sane thing to do at this point is to just honestly admit that this is a bit of a curious thing for Jesus to teach if he is expecting his followers to be sin free all the time - I suspect that you will irrationally cling to your rigid position instead )