1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Jul '05 01:44
    Originally posted by mochiron
    KellyJay....not to stamp on your holy ground. I am late to this debate. If you want a stong athiest...I will try that angle...but how do you define an athiest? one who does not believe in a Suprieme Being? One who does not believe in teh Concept of a supreme being? And as for your Final Judgement day proclamations...no Offence but I find the Bible and the K ...[text shortened]... hintoism any day over Christianity or Islam.... and I am not Japanese...but I do live in Japan.
    Yes, I believe our full lives will be on display, everything, and without
    exception all things done in the dark or the light of day will be on
    display. Those deeds that we did when we knew no one could see, or
    that we would not get caught will be there, in front of family, friends,
    God, and everyone else. Nothing will be hidden on that day.

    I'm surprised you'd think everything couldn't be recorded, when just
    by own ablilties we can record events as we wish, and you would think
    that an all powerful God couldn't replay events as they occured along
    with our thought processes that caused to act on things? So when
    people acted in front of other people while appearing to be one thing
    God can show us all what was really going on inside of them at the
    time, there will be no excuses since all things will be on full display.
    We will be the jury too, those of us who accepted the truth in the face
    of certain death will be watching those that claimed they could not
    accept God because they were facing certain death. Judgment will
    start in the house of God and go out from there for us.

    If we are not covered by the blood of the one who died for us and rose
    again, we will be there in our own righteousness, and we get what our
    righteousness calls for, if we are saved by Jesus' blood it will He will
    speak for us, we will be saved because of Him, not because of any
    good work we do.

    I'm not sure what Shintoism is, I've never heard of it.
    Kelly



  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Jul '05 01:56
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    Cheers W
    I'll throw in another spanner
    Can an athiest be Christian?
    A Christian believes in the immaculate conception, Jesus lived, died and was resurrected as the saviour.
    What if an athiest also doesn't believe in these things but follows Jesus' commandment to to do right etc. Jesus didn't discriminate who he did good for..

    Dan
    This is what I'd say to your question. It is better to study scripture
    for youself, asking God's Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.
    Kelly

    Gal 1: 5-9
    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

  3. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    04 Jul '05 08:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    This is what I'd say to your question. It is better to study scripture
    for youself, asking God's Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.
    Kelly

    Gal 1: 5-9
    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are ...[text shortened]... is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    It tough for me to speak like this and please don't take me the wrong way as I examine some fundimental points.
    I wouldn't pervert the gospel of Christ nor would I alter scriptures but question here whether Jesus would discriminate against athiests, ignorants or even pagans who live righteous lives and live by their conscience.. I do believe he would discriminate against Christians who go too far and take the market place into the church condemning all who do not follow their rules.
    If Jesus came among us today he would sack the churches and go to the nearest hill to speak.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Jul '05 15:291 edit
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    It tough for me to speak like this and please don't take me the wrong way as I examine some fundimental points.
    I wouldn't pervert the gospel of Christ nor would I alter scriptures but question here whether Jesus would discriminate a ...[text shortened]... y he would sack the churches and go to the nearest hill to speak.
    I agree with you that Jesus would simply live and let live while he was
    here as a man during that time period; however, Jesus on the day of
    judgment is another thing.

    As far as when he was here with us as a man, I don't think he would
    worry about either those of us who were athiest, pagans, or whatever.
    He was more interested in calling those that would come to God the
    Father through him, those that did not belong to him, he let them go
    the way they wanted to go.

    On the day of judgment if you believe pink fairies save your soul
    in the after life, well that will be put to the test that day, the same
    with atheist, pagans, and so on. If you are putting your faith in
    nothing, or in your own righteousness, in a holy "X" and if that is
    not what God is looking for, it will be put to the test of reality. If
    Jesus told the truth about judgment day, our rightous lives will
    stand or fall on what?
    Kelly
  5. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jul '05 15:36
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Yes, I believe our full lives will be on display, everything, and without
    exception all things done in the dark or the light of day will be on
    display. Those deeds that we did when we knew no one could see, or
    that we would not get caught will be there, in front of family, friends,
    God, and everyone else. Nothing will be hidden on that day.

    I'm surp ...[text shortened]... ny
    good work we do.

    I'm not sure what Shintoism is, I've never heard of it.
    Kelly



    Wait. YOU'RE going to judge me? Not God?
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Jul '05 15:54
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Wait. YOU'RE going to judge me? Not God?
    God is going to judge, but if you read the scriptures you'll see we
    too are going to have some say in it too. There are other examples
    too, but I think this should give you the idea of what I was talking
    about.
    Kelly

    Matthew 12:42
    42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

    Luke 11:32
    32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
  7. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    05 Jul '05 12:30
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I agree with you that Jesus would simply live and let live while he was
    here as a man during that time period; however, Jesus on the day of
    judgment is another thing.

    As far as when he was here with us as a man, I don't think he would
    worry about either those of us who were athiest, pagans, or whatever.
    He was more interested in calling those that w ...[text shortened]...
    Jesus told the truth about judgment day, our rightous lives will
    stand or fall on what?
    Kelly
    I can't believe that the all forgiving God I was taught about would condemn an athiest with no belief in the hereafter who did all the good in the world, lived righteously, knew and taught right from wrong but would forgive and embrace a man who lived as a murdering criminal pervert who repented and accepted God on his death bed. God wouldn't condemn the misguided, the misinformed or those who were born innocently into an unholy background... that would be hypocritical.

    And I'm finding it harder daily to believe Jesus would embrace the charismatic churches or the catholic churches today. He'd sack them all or go to a second death trying. I'm certain he'd just stand on a hill and people would go to him. Jesus prime mission was not worship it was teaching the path of goodness.
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    05 Jul '05 13:35
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    I can't believe that the all forgiving God I was taught about would condemn an athiest with no belief in the hereafter who did all the good in the world, lived righteously, knew and taught right from wrong but would forgive and embrace a man who lived as a murdering criminal pervert who repented and accepted God on his death bed. God wouldn't condemn th ...[text shortened]... eople would go to him. Jesus prime mission was not worship it was teaching the path of goodness.
    I think that if God could find someone who 'lived righteously', forgiving him would not be an issue. Such a person would essentially already dwell in the heavenlies, as it were. But there are 'none righteous, no not one' amongst us. When Jesus walked in the earth, He demonstrated what the perfect, sinless life looked like; a life that had never been seen before or since.

    Another point: I don't think it's right, necessarily, to see God as 'condemning' anyone. He has written what used to be called the 'natural law' on each of our hearts. We all know right from wrong from the earlies days of our lives. Then we soon begin to recognize that when we KNOW we should share, or be fair, or not cheat in school, we tend to be selfish, or unfair, or cheat anyway! (This pattern easily grows to the point for some men of becoming that 'murdering criminal pervert' you mentioned. But knowing that we will crash to the ground if we go beyond the guardrail, we climb over just the same. Gravity does not condemn us in such a case: we condemn ourselves by imposing our own will in the wrong direction.

    The wonder of God's grace is that, in the spiritual world, repentance is still available even when we are beyond the rail and in the accelerating grasp of the free fall! Once we hit the ground (when we die), of course, the chance to repent is past.
  9. Standard membersasquatch672
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    05 Jul '05 15:57

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  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    05 Jul '05 17:39
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    I can't believe that the all forgiving God I was taught about would condemn an athiest with no belief in the hereafter who did all the good in the world, lived righteously, knew and taught right from wrong but would forgive and embrace a man who lived as a murdering criminal pervert who repented and accepted God on his death bed. God wouldn't condemn th ...[text shortened]... eople would go to him. Jesus prime mission was not worship it was teaching the path of goodness.
    Why do you believe that if you were taught that Jesus told the
    thief on the cross next to him he was going to be accepted, that
    he would not take anyone at any time that turned to him? Why
    would you think God would owe you anything if you turned your
    back on Him your whole life? Your righteousness may be good
    enough to enter into God's Kingdom, but if not you will find out.
    Besides, the one thing you seem to want now more than anything is
    to not be apart of God's Kingdom, He would just be giving you what
    you have wanted your whole life to turn you away.
    Kelly
  11. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    06 Jul '05 11:39
    I share this with you only if you will take it at face value with the assurance that I share in friendly spirit, not a critical one.. You may put me down but please don't think I'm trying to put anyone down.

    I now athiest. Just too long in the police on the street hearing to many excuses for carnages. I took services as an intercessor for a while recently but the vicar's questions.. Do I believe in the immaculate conception? No I don't. Reincarnation? No absolutely not.
    Deity? No. I've always believed in my heart that heaven is a clear conscience with no guilt and that hell is the realisation of ones sin and the burden of guilt that it brings to some.
    Having the strength to say no and not turn back is not easy after a life time. I truely believe that belief in a deity is superstition based.
    It isn't weakness not to need a prop. We sleep dreamless every night and lose time .. that down time is what it is to die.. we just shut down.
    I have yet to face to face my deeply Christian friends.. Cheers
    Dan
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    07 Jul '05 00:35
    Originally posted by Tirau Dan
    I share this with you only if you will take it at face value with the assurance that I share in friendly spirit, not a critical one.. You may put me down but please don't think I'm trying to put anyone down.

    I now athiest. Just too long in the police on the street hearing to many excuses for carnages. I took services as an intercessor for a while rec ...[text shortened]... . we just shut down.
    I have yet to face to face my deeply Christian friends.. Cheers
    Dan
    Hey, I appreciate your honesty. No putting down is acceptable (I say that though I occasionaly throw the unfair jab, to my disgrace). We all start out in the unknown, but it is so important to be sincerely seeking. I would suggest the book called Mere Christianity by CS Lewis as kind of a primer on basic religios philosophy, to anyone who is serious about the kind of issues we talk about here.
  13. Standard memberTirau Dan
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    07 Jul '05 10:35
    Originally posted by chinking58
    Hey, I appreciate your honesty. No putting down is acceptable (I say that though I occasionaly throw the unfair jab, to my disgrace). We all start out in the unknown, but it is so important to be sincerely seeking. I would suggest the book called Mere Christianity by CS Lewis as kind of a primer on basic religios philosophy, to anyone who is serious about the kind of issues we talk about here.
    Much appreciated.. I just don't want to offend. The bigest surprise to me is that I'm not having troubled thoughts about atheism. my thoughts are as clear as when I was a policeman investigating a crime. I'll aways respect and embrace the religious beliefs of others but I won't allow my family or dictate to me what I should believe. It's different here because I am posting my opinion to share and suffer scrutiny. I don't mind critism so long as people don't get offended by what I've said... that's the last thing I do.
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    07 Jul '05 16:13
    u no hell cwho no's what god there is out there. but u no it's amazin what kind of stories people tell of their gods or gd. it dates all da way back. it's crazy 2 b'lieve peole over generations created to make themselves believe in someone other than themselves. gods will be gods. who no's if we're all worshipping the same god in disguise?
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