Contradictions in the Quran?

Originally posted by Agerg
hmm...assume the world was created about 6000 years ago in our measurement of years (the range I would assume is between 5500 to 6499 years ago...else it would have been about 5000, or 7000 years ago instead)

Next assume that the statement God created the world in 7 days is true (actually he is supposed to have taken a breather on the 7th day...no worries) ...[text shortened]... w creating it, or is still in the process of creating what he has already created!!!

huh?😕🙄

The problem is the Bible assumes that man was created just after creating the universe. And that what makes the conflict.

According to Quran there is no connection between the universe creation and man creation.

Actualy it say that everything was created before man, and there was a life on earth.

But when the first man come to earth, no specific information is given. But it is not 6000 years.

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According to Quran man was created to live on earth. To populate earth, and to worship GOD.

Originally posted by ahosyney
The problem is the Bible assumes that man was created just after creating the universe. And that what makes the conflict.

According to Quran there is no connection between the universe creation and man creation.

Actualy it say that everything was created before man, and there was a life on earth.

But when the first man come to earth, no specific ...[text shortened]... -

According to Quran man was created to live on earth. To populate earth, and to worship GOD.

hehe...despite the nature of this thread I couldn't resist taking a pot-shot at what some believe is true within the christian framework...I wasn't actually responding to you or attacking the Qu-ran...yet! 😉

Originally posted by Agerg
hehe...despite the nature of this thread I couldn't resist taking a pot-shot at what some believe is true within the christian framework...I wasn't actually responding to you or attacking the Qu-ran...yet! 😉

I understand, so should I excpect an attack to Quran !!

Originally posted by ahosyney
I understand, so should I excpect an attack to Quran !!

well...I haven't really got time or inclination to read the Qu-ran at the moment...(I regard it as fiction...might be a thrilling read but still fiction), however, If something you cite from that book catches my eye when I'm browsing this forum I just might take a few pot shots.

Originally posted by ahosyney
The idea that Adam destroyed GOD plan , is aganist omniscience of GOD. Don't you agree with me?[/b]

Biblically, God's position is that it is God's will that none should perish that is seen in 2 Peter 3:9 yet people do perish, no? What you appear to be saying is that man has no free will. If man had no free will then God would then have to desire some to perish who he has chosen not to believe. If, however, we do have free will, then God has CHOSEN (thus his onmiscience remains in tact) to give us autonomy in deciding to serve him or not to serve him because he is a God of love. After all, love demands a choice.

As far as you position about Adam originally being created to die physically I find remarkable and I had not heard anything like it until this day. It amazes me that the God of the living could originally design his creation to die in any way shape or form. For God to have any shadow or any incling towards death in any way I find to be unacceptable. You see God is a God of life and the living and we die only when we reject our life source which is God, thus Adam and Eve died both spiritually the day they partook of the fruit and physically some 900 years later.

Originally posted by whodey
Biblically, God's position is that it is God's will that none should perish that is seen in 2 Peter 3:9 yet people do perish, no? What you appear to be saying is that man has no free will. If man had no free will then God would then have to desire some to perish who he has chosen not to believe. If, however, we do have free will, then God has CHOSEN (thus ...[text shortened]... e died both spiritually the day they partook of the fruit and physically some 900 years later.

Biblically, God's position is that it is God's will that none should perish that is seen in 2 Peter 3:9 yet people do perish, no? What you appear to be saying is that man has no free will. If man had no free will then God would then have to desire some to perish who he has chosen not to believe. If, however, we do have free will, then God has CHOSEN (thus his onmiscience remains in tact) to give us autonomy in deciding to serve him or not to serve him because he is a God of love. After all, love demands a choice.

This will start a debate on free will and how to interpret it. I don't have the ability now to talk with you about this point. It requires some reading. It requires me to explain it from Islamic prospective, which I don't have in mind now.

But what I know that there is no contradiction from the islamic point of view. We have free will, to choose.
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More important is your statement doesn't have much to do with my argument about GOD plan.

I asked you this Question before, Was Adam created to live in heaven or in earth?

As far as you position about Adam originally being created to die physically I find remarkable and I had not heard anything like it until this day.

I'm amazed too why it is hard to accept. What is the difference between man and any other creature. Why animals die while they don't sin.

I'm waiting for your answer..

Originally posted by ahosyney
Why animals die while they don't sin.

I'm waiting for your answer..[/b]

I will give you the verses that make up my theology and I will let you form your own conclusions.

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from
Adam to Moses, EVEN OVER THEM WHO HAD NOT SINNED after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 8:18-21 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. BECAUSE THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO WILL BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it will be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given EVERY GREEN HERB for meat; and it was so.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also dwells with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child will lead them. And the cow and the bear will feed; their young ones will lie down together; and the lion will eat straw like the ox. And the suckling child will play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child will put his hand on the cockatrice den.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the bullock; and dust will be the serpants meat. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, says the Lord.

Originally posted by ahosyney


I asked you this Question before, Was Adam created to live in heaven or in earth?

On earth. So what is the point you are trying to make here?

Originally posted by whodey
I do not disagree that there is both spiritual and physical death as well as physical and spiritual life. My question to you, however, is before Adam died, was he destined to die physically and/or spiritually if he had not chosen to sin?

The story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.

We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity -- that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.

Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men  125  have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary were spread abroad, the human realities -- that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties -- were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, "I gave My blood for the life of the world"[2] -- that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.

Christ by His holy breezes saved men from attachment and freed them from sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: "Let the dead bury their dead." Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.


This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 125)

Originally posted by Varqa
[b]The story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol.

Why?

Originally posted by Varqa
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 125)

Is this one of the founders of the Bahai faith?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Is this one of the founders of the Bahai faith?

Yes. I am glad you noticed, even if you are Lucifers Hammer :-)

Originally posted by whodey
[b]I am glad you brought up Noah. Here we have a case where Noah had sinned Biblically when he became drunk even though it states that he was a just man and perfect in generations. I am sure that you would counter, however, by saying that the scriptures have been "corrupted" and that Noah never became drunk because he was a man of God. I would argue, however, ...[text shortened]... ness for our sins when we sin. Therefore, in God's sight we are just because he forgives us, no?

[/b]As far as Jesus blaspheming I would say that he was not. However, had he not been the Son of God he would have been blaspheming. He was merely accused of blaspheming because they did not believe that he was the Son of God.

I have just read this , sorry for late I didn't see it before.

What I can see here a circular reasoning. As you can see, Jesus to be a son of GOD then he must be sinless. But he made a sin by blaspheming. No it is not a sin because he is a son of GOD.

Do you see it?

Originally posted by whodey
I will give you the verses that make up my theology and I will let you form your own conclusions.

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned ...[text shortened]... be the serpants meat. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, says the Lord.

I might got what you mean , but I need more clarification from you:

I think you mean hat Animials were created to help man during his life in earth. So the rules doesn't apply for them. Am I right?

Originally posted by whodey
On earth. So what is the point you are trying to make here?

My point is sending Adam and Eve to earth was not a punishment. It was what GOD created them for from the begining. And the only punishment for the sin is what mentioned in Gen 3:14 to 3:19 nothing else. And it means that the crucification of Jesus (If he was crucified) didn't do anything.

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And also you didn't answer this point:

The other important point her is: Was this a punishment of evry sin, or Just eating from the tree?

I think you agree that the sin is evil, and the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So before eating from the tree Adam was not able to know the difference between the good and evil. This means that he was not able to recognize the sin. So it was not a sin!!!

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According to Quran Adam was forgiven and there was no punishment.


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Sorry for late replaying to you here , I wanted to concentrate in one point?