Originally posted by KellyJaySo God created the stars millions of years away, and rays of light in all directions showing us that star. The rays we see from the star actually are not from the star, are rays from god, because the light created from the star didn't have time to arrive yet. That means nothing is telling us a star is there, because no information whatsoever from that star has arrived yet.
As I said I have already answered that, since this is a creation debate
the answer is, God did it! When he created the stars the light stricking
the earth was also created at the same time, making our light the
same age as the stars themselves. If you are talking about light
leaving a star millions of light years away, it would take millions of
years to reach here.
Kelly
Plus, all the history from light arriving at earth has no meaning. The evolution of the stars, it's specter, doppler effect, etc, it's all a lie. It was all created at the same time during creation. SO, why does it provide temporal information?
That's so absurd, did you know?
Originally posted by RetrovirusI don't prove the star is out there any more than I prove when I'm
So, you mean the light was created not in the star itself, but rather in space so it would get here now - and thus we are able to see the star.
So, how can you prove the star really is out there?
holding car keys in my hand that I have car keys. We could argue
or debate on what my keys can do, such as my holding my keys now
means I can start my car, or start your car if you have one, but the
keys being in my hand are simply my keys being in my hand, just
as they stars in the sky are the stars in the sky, what that means
or what we can glean from that is another thing all together.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoI've been here quite some time serigado, I don't need or require your
You talk, talk, talk, but say nothing.
I have given no answers whatsoever to my points of view. Respect is earned. Are you going to answer or just keep quiet cause there are no more valid arguments?
respect, I also don't need your permission to post my points of view
either. If you don't like the answers I give stop asking me questions.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoWell there you go, you and I don't agree.
So God created the stars millions of years away, and rays of light in all directions showing us that star. The rays we see from the star actually are not from the star, are rays from god, because the light created from the star didn't have time to arrive yet. That means nothing is telling us a star is there, because no information whatsoever from that star ...[text shortened]... ing creation. SO, why does it provide temporal information?
That's so absurd, did you know?
Kelly
Originally posted by serigado"So God created the stars millions of years away..." I don't know
So God created the stars millions of years away, and rays of light in all directions showing us that star. The rays we see from the star actually are not from the star, are rays from god, because the light created from the star didn't have time to arrive yet. That means nothing is telling us a star is there, because no information whatsoever from that star ...[text shortened]... ing creation. SO, why does it provide temporal information?
That's so absurd, did you know?
how far away they are with respect to light years, and I'd be willing
to bet you believe you do, but at best you have a educated guess.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayThe point (I think you didn't get it yet) is: It is not my belief. It is a fact stars are millions of years away.
"So God created the stars millions of years away..." I don't know
how far away they are with respect to light years, and I'd be willing
to bet you believe you do, but at best you have a educated guess.
Kelly
You can make all arguments about evolution being wrong, carbon dating and the big flood flushing all information, and your arguments, although unlikely, can't be ultimately be proven wrong.
This is a different subject. We are here now, we can test it now, everyone can. There's no debate about this. Stars ARE light years away. It's not a belief.
I'm sorry if I offended you before, but when there's something so evident and I try to make my point and people simply can't get it I loose my patience. I'm only human.
Why aren't you willing to question your points of view and take the bible as the ultimate truth? I admit I can be wrong, Why do you make everything about faith?
Originally posted by KellyJay
Their faith is wrong? There faith is simply their faith, it is like saying
their blue eyes, or brown eyes are wrong! I don't think you yet grasp
what I have been telling you, but it could just be me not saying in
such a way you can see it.
Their judgment about right and wrong comes into play, just as all of
our judgments come into play, they buy into ...[text shortened]... o stand before God trying to justify to
Him why I killed someone Jesus died for.
Kelly
Me: At what point do you think his/her faith is misguided?
You: The part where they kill someone and themselves thinking they are
doing a good thing.
You make a judgement based on your faith. They made a judgement based on their faith. Who is right, and who is wrong?
Kelly-Jay? Can you tell me which faith is correct?
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Originally posted by snowinscotlandTruth is what it is, reality is what it is, we live our lives accordingly to
Originally posted by KellyJay
Their faith is wrong? There faith is simply their faith, it is like saying
their blue eyes, or brown eyes are wrong! I don't think you yet grasp
what I have been telling you, but it could just be me not saying in
such a way you can see it.
Their judgment about right and wrong comes into play, just as all of
...[text shortened]... . Who is right, and who is wrong?
Kelly-Jay? Can you tell me which faith is correct?
what we believe how our faith points us. Now do we do ourselves
justice from time to time by saying I'm better than you, or your
better than me? No, we are what we are, God isn't like that, nor is it
like that in the universe we find ourselves in, things are what they are.
If you run around killing people, your just that a killer, if you hold
murder in your heart, by Christ's words you are a murder. If you are
doing things you keep hidden from others because of your shame
or desire not to get caught, those things you do in the dark so to
speak make you what you are, though hidden from man your
actions define what you are, it is the truth God knows it.
We will not rise above the abilities traits that make us up, just like
water will not rise above its source on its own (without help), we cannot
do what is beyond us, yet with God it goes beyond what we can do by
ourselves. We have committed crimes against God and man, and
the judgment will not only come from God but from ourselves! You
will for example be held accountable to that which you hold others
accountable too, you will be judged by yourself!
If I for example say that all "pick a skin color" should be wiped from
the face of the earth because "THEY" (who ever they are) have done
XYZ if those of my skin color did XYZ too, yet I hold all accountable of
a certain skin color for the crimes of a few am I setting up myself
to be condemned, because of XYZ too, because my skin color
makes me no different? If I know for example something is wrong,
and I do it anyway, am I not setting up myself for condemnation?
We will live out our lives and will give an account for it, our only hope is
God, God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ is the only thing
that cleans us from our sins. I will not say I'm better than another,
I will say I need the same blood to clean my sin as they do theirs. I
will also say that Jesus died for them as he did me, there isn't
anything about me that I'll say is better than anyone else, my needs
are equal to everyone else', I will say that whatever you put your
trust or faith in, if it works, great, if it does not that is the way it is.
Jesus Christ has been faithful to me, beyond everything I could hope
for, and that has nothing to do with me it is all Him.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoStars are light years away, a couple of things the first is so what?
The point (I think you didn't get it yet) is: It is not my belief. It is a fact stars are millions of years away.
You can make all arguments about evolution being wrong, carbon dating and the big flood flushing all information, and your arguments, although unlikely, can't be ultimately be proven wrong.
This is a different subject. We are here now, we can ...[text shortened]... as the ultimate truth? I admit I can be wrong, Why do you make everything about faith?
As I pointed out it does not matter, when Adam and Eve were
created he did start them out as babies but adults, the same with
age of the universe, it was setup to do what it was suppose to do.
With regard to light years and the stars being as away as far as you
think they are, good luck with proving that! The same thing with all
the dating methods that give you millions or billions of years, you
can rest in your beliefs you are correct, but that is all you are doing.
You may be right, I cannot prove you wrong no one can. You can
point to your models and say these things fit your model and these
do not, that makes them fit your model, that does not make your
model a blue print on what really happened.
Show me I'm wrong saying it is possible you could be wrong?
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoWhy aren't you willing to question your points of view and take the bible as the ultimate truth? I admit I can be wrong, Why do you make everything about faith?
The point (I think you didn't get it yet) is: It is not my belief. It is a fact stars are millions of years away.
You can make all arguments about evolution being wrong, carbon dating and the big flood flushing all information, and your arguments, although unlikely, can't be ultimately be proven wrong.
This is a different subject. We are here now, we can ...[text shortened]... as the ultimate truth? I admit I can be wrong, Why do you make everything about faith?
Who told you I never question my own beliefs, they are always under
question! You admit you can be wrong, than you have to admit we
are not speaking about facts when it comes to dates since it is
possible you can be wrong. When it comes to everything being faith,
well because it is.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayLogically you are right. But there is one thing american's call "reason above doubt", or something like that. I can't prove anything to be true in the real world (except mathematical concepts or logical). Stars being far away is not a model. It's the same of saying earth goes around the sun. You can argue I can't know for sure earth goes around the sun. I'll say you are right, I can't prove that, but there's enough evidence.
Stars are light years away, a couple of things the first is so what?
As I pointed out it does not matter, when Adam and Eve were
created he did start them out as babies but adults, the same with
age of the universe, it was setup to do what it was suppose to do.
With regard to light years and the stars being as away as far as you
think they are, good ...[text shortened]... on what really happened.
Show me I'm wrong saying it is possible you could be wrong?
Kelly
If what you are saying is true and the Universe was created with an initial configuration to look old... Well... That's impossible to refute. Then god would have to insert in the rays arriving from space false information about a time before his creation.
Don't you just feel you are trying to adapt reality to your belief, and it should be exactly the opposite? Beliefs should be made by what we experience. You started your belief from the Bible and try to fit and bend everything to be in accordance with it. Even if it looks surreal.
Originally posted by KellyJayErm, I don't know if you're aware of how distance to stars is measured, but we can prove it. For nearer star, we use parallax, like closing your left eye, then your right and seeing how far a star "moves", basic secondary school geometry does the rest. For much older and further away stars we use doppler shift, the same thing that makes an ambulance sound higher pitched as it approaches but lower pitched as it leaves. You can also use relative brightness compared to their chemical makeup, which spectral analysis (a very simple technique that measures the colours emitted by different atoms) makes a cynch.
Stars are light years away, a couple of things the first is so what?
As I pointed out it does not matter, when Adam and Eve were
created he did start them out as babies but adults, the same with
age of the universe, it was setup to do what it was suppose to do.
With regard to light years and the stars being as away as far as you
think they are, good ...[text shortened]... on what really happened.
Show me I'm wrong saying it is possible you could be wrong?
Kelly
The adam and eve thing though, relies on a book that isn't even referenced. Unless you count the guy in the sky as a reference.
The other very important thing that we in science have is error bars. We know that we might be wrong, but at least we know by how much we could be wrong. That way we can find the full range of values.
Really, please just take a look at what you're saying and think about whether it carries any weight.
Even if you want to continue that God just set things up that way, why would (s)he do it in such a way as to make it look like (s)he didn't exist? Please avoid the circular argument of "to test our faith", to do so compared to how little (s)he tested our faith before the rise of science in the past few centuries. The only thing you can say is that science is actually the work of the devil because it seeks to shake peoples faith. In which case what are you doing using a computer?
Originally posted by KellyJayOf course we are not speaking about facts when we talk about dates.
[b]Why aren't you willing to question your points of view and take the bible as the ultimate truth? I admit I can be wrong, Why do you make everything about faith?
Who told you I never question my own beliefs, they are always under
question! You admit you can be wrong, than you have to admit we
are not speaking about facts when it comes to dates si ...[text shortened]... possible you can be wrong. When it comes to everything being faith,
well because it is.
Kelly[/b]
Don't you think it's EXTREMELLY odd carbon dating works perfectly for every date, in accordance to history, even the bible, and then, suddenly, without explanation, it is no longer valid, JUST BECAUSE it goes some interpretations from the bible? (and no, the noah's flood doesn't explain it). And there's a lot more then carbon dating supporting the dates.
Even christians are willing to admit the bible must not be taken literally, and that the world just is impossible to be 6k yrs old.
But your position is extremely radical, because you are defending the bible the most literal and reducing way.
Originally posted by agrysonI guess you have not been following the discussion until the last
Erm, I don't know if you're aware of how distance to stars is measured, but we can prove it. For nearer star, we use parallax, like closing your left eye, then your right and seeing how far a star "moves", basic secondary school geometry does the rest. For much older and further away stars we use doppler shift, the same thing that makes an ambulance sound hi ...[text shortened]... use it seeks to shake peoples faith. In which case what are you doing using a computer?
couple of posts uh?
Kelly