Originally posted by serigadoMay I ask you why you keep bringing up the Bible in our discussion,
Of course we are not speaking about facts when we talk about dates.
Don't you think it's EXTREMELLY odd carbon dating works perfectly for every date, in accordance to history, even the bible, and then, suddenly, without explanation, it is no longer valid, JUST BECAUSE it goes some interpretations from the bible? (and no, the noah's flood doesn't explain it ...[text shortened]... s extremely radical, because you are defending the bible the most literal and reducing way.
have I made reference to it to prove a point, give you some direction
by which I have made claims? I don't think I have offered you
anything scripturally accept in responce to a question. So why are you
attempting to use it as a way to promote an old universe?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI thought you made all your arguments based on the Bible. Where else could you base your position?
May I ask you why you keep bringing up the Bible in our discussion,
have I made reference to it to prove a point, give you some direction
by which I have made claims? I don't think I have offered you
anything scripturally accept in responce to a question. So why are you
attempting to use it as a way to promote an old universe?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayAdmittedly no, since it's over 20 pages, it's a big hassle to backtrack over the last 5 pages (which is generally what I try to do) so if anything I said is redundant, I apologise. I'll make more of an effort now and get back to you soon...
I guess you have not been following the discussion until the last
couple of posts uh?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI think you are missing the point. You have faith that you are right, and your faith tells you that you are right, so your faith in your faith is more unshaken and so it is right... etc etc
Truth is what it is, reality is what it is, we live our lives accordingly to
what we believe how our faith points us. Now do we do ourselves
justice from time to time by saying I'm better than you, or your
better than me? No, we are what we are, God isn't like that, nor is it
like that in the universe we find ourselves in, things are what they are.
If ...[text shortened]... erything I could hope
for, and that has nothing to do with me it is all Him.
Kelly
And that's what the suicide bomber's faith tells them.... perhaps they are right, but then that might make you wrong..?!!
Originally posted by KellyJayOk, I reread back over the past few pages, focusing especially on your understanding of how knowledge is aquired in science. Unfortunately it is a very difficult subject matter governed by the philosophy of science (such philosophers themselves often not being scientists). I suggest you read the first chapter or two of "What is this thing called science" by A.F. Chalmers. It is considered one of the finest modern works on the philosophy of science and corrects many of your misperceptions about whether it is blind faith that is used by scientists or not.
I guess you have not been following the discussion until the last
couple of posts uh?
Kelly
Faith requires an agenda. Something you're looking to prove. In science, the closest thing is hypotheses, but if the evidence doesn't exist, they get cast out. The reason this is not faith is because when the evidence doesn't exist for a God, instead of casting the hypothesis aside, bearded guys write a book and refer to it as evidence several generations down the line.
That of course is only a synopsis of the difference. You should really read the first few chapters of that book to see science from a philosophers perspective. (and no, it's not a religion vs science book, it's just the philosophy of science, why we work the way we do.)
Originally posted by snowinscotlandYou have a point besides everyone has an opinion?
I think you are missing the point. You have faith that you are right, and your faith tells you that you are right, so your faith in your faith is more unshaken and so it is right... etc etc
And that's what the suicide bomber's faith tells them.... perhaps they are right, but then that might make you wrong..?!!
Kelly
Originally posted by agrysonDID YOU SEE THE WORDS "BLIND FAITH" at any time come out of any
Ok, I reread back over the past few pages, focusing especially on your understanding of how knowledge is aquired in science. Unfortunately it is a very difficult subject matter governed by the philosophy of science (such philosophers themselves often not being scientists). I suggest you read the first chapter or two of "What is this thing called science" by ...[text shortened]... ligion vs science book, it's just the philosophy of science, why we work the way we do.),
thing I ever said?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayNow I'm really curious.
🙂 I suggest you read the words I used and try to come up with why
I said them. Try to think I may come to my conclusions on my own
without being spoon fed by anyone.
Kelly
If you don't base your faith for the earth being 6k years old on the Bible, where did you arrive at this conclusion? And about dinosaurs and men coexisting?
I submit to you that we can know that God exists. Some assert that there is not enough evidence for proof that such is in existence; however this response will attempt to submit that very evidence that is supposedly lacking. It may be that those who would say that there is no proof that God exists, care not to examine or even look for such evidence. I will submit that evidence during the course of several responses to this question; this will be the first of several parts to this answer.
Is the following statement logical? "I don't believe in car manufacturers." Even though I see evidence that cars exist, and know that they do exist, is it logical to state that car manufacturers do not exist? You see, the very fact that a car is here and that the body of the car is placed as such for an engine to be assembed and placed inside, and a transmission and axil and wheels and tires working together shows DESIGN. I know that since cars are designed, there must be a designer, which is the car manufacturer. So it is with the human body, and the earth, and all that in it is! Our bodies show design. Our planet, the way that it is set on a 23 1/3 degree axis, and the distance from the Sun, and the makeup of the atmosphere shows design. The water cycle, the composition of the air that we breathe, and animals and their individual uniqueness shows design. Therefore there must needs be a Designer.
The Bible claims this kind of thinking, whether the reader beleives that the Bible is the word of God or not. "For every house is builded by some man; but He that built all things is God" (Heb. 3:4). I am not using the Bible as proof here, for that would be circular reasoning in this case for the existence of God. However, I will present the evidence, even evidence outside the Bible; but I will also show the Biblical claims as we go along.
The human eye is much more complex than the most technologically advanced camera. Millions of rods and cones working together to sense color and light. How could man evolve such a complex mechanism?
Here is the composition of air:
Nitrogen
N2
78.084 %
Oxygen
O2
20.9476 %
Argon
Ar
0.934 %
Carbon Dioxide
CO2
0.0314 %
Neon
Ne
0.001818 %
Methane
CH4
0.0002 %
Helium
He
0.000524 %
Krypton
Kr
0.000114 %
Hydrogen
H2
0.00005 %
Xenon
Xe
0.0000087 %
Did this happen just by coincidence, or was it designed this way to support life?
The ant's two-stomach system is perfectly designed for their social environment. Their ability to grow and harvest fungi is extremely complex. Their livestock-farming abilities with the aphids are exceptionally amazing habits. The ant is evidence for an intelligent designer.
There is an electrochemical change in the surface membrane of the nerve in the brain which, once started, is self-propagating. In other words the neuron itself supplies the energy for the transmission of the impulse, whereas the electrical wire is only a passive conductor, dependent of a "push" supplied by an external batter or generator to move the electrons. It is absolutely evident that the brain is the most complex computer ever to exist. Cellular mutation can not account for the perfection of the human brain.
If earth was to be any closer to the sun, it would be too hot to sustain life. If earth was to be any further away from the sun, it would be too cold. Earth was placed in the right place for there to be the right amount of heat and cold for plants, animals, and humans to survive.
Earth is on a 23.5° axis. This helps the different hemispheres to have different seasons. This allows for food production that is vital to life.
The dragonfly is capable of changing speed and direction in a fraction of a second. It also has large compound eyes that meet on top of its head that can see above, below, sideways, and behind as it flies along.
There is also a storage of elastic energy that is suddenly released during the articulation of the tergal and pleural plates that drives the wing upwards at high velocity. This is called the click mechanism. There has been a discovery of a fossil, dated 300 million years ago (their date not mine), and it looks identical to the dragonflies of today! This "click mechanism" was supposed to have evolved, yet this fossil shows one.
The electric currents of the eel can reach 500-650 volts. That is five times the shock one would receive from an American electrical outlet. The internal organs are compressed into a small area directly behind the head. The rest of the body is a long, electricity producing tail. The tail of the eel is positively charged and the head is negatively charged. After delivering a powerful shock, the electric eel must allow the electric organ to recharge before another shock can be delivered. The energy to recharge the electric organ comes from the fish's metabolism. Electric eels also use the production and sensing of weak electrical signals for navigation and for communication with other electric eels. This is important because they have very poor eyesight which worsens as they age. Their ability to detect electrical signals is so keen that it even allows them to detect the heartbeats of other fish. If the electric eel had to evolve its ability to generate electricity, it would have starved to death, or been killed by predators many years ago.
There are about 19 million cells, 625 sweat glands, 90 oil glands, 65 hairs, 19 feet of blood vessels, and 19,000 sensory cells in one square inch of the human skin. The physiology and the chemistry of the skin demands a creator. Skin gives the body protection; it is made up of sensors, and it regulates heat.
Water is the substance that sustains life on this earth, and there is a design for the continued use of it: the water cycle. There are six important processes that make up the water cycle: Evaporation, condensation, precipitation, surface runoff, infiltration, and transpiration. This is not a living organism; did this evolve also? Is it just a coincidence?
In conclusion: The fact that the earth itself, the way it is set in space, the complexity of human beings, the sophistication of animal life, and how everything seemingly works together is absolutely overwhelming evidence for an intelligent Designer: that Designer is God.
Originally posted by KellyJayYes I did, which is what illustrated that you seem no to understand the principles of scientific measurement and why we do the things we do. There are certain things which need to be accepted, though as I pointed out (though the book I quoted does a much better job than me) how we as scientists arrive at these is based on a weighing of all the alternatives. We have over the past hundred years especially, taken how we perform science and studied it very carefully. Not just scientists have been doing this either. We have in effect handed this job over to philosophers and modern popperism is what we are currently with. Is that where your problem is? We as scientists, are, by our own philosophy, never allowed to say that we know something works for absolute certain. But we can say what doesn't work for certain. Independantly using several methods, each independantly verified by the observational evidence allow us with enormous confidence to explore our world.
DID YOU SEE THE WORDS "BLIND FAITH" at any time come out of any
thing I ever said?
Kelly
Faced with a choice between what is basically a rushed knee-jerk reaction of "God did it", (which to me doesn't seem very considered, despite the word wrenching afterwards to explain away the plainly obvious) and a carefully considered, multiply and independantly verified construction of theories which are not arrogant enough to claim to be the end of the story. I'd choose the latter. It's a carefully considered and judged position, which I think you'll find doesn't really qualify as blind faith. Creationism is however blind faith in an unsupported and likely to be fictional (or "based on a true story" ) kind of book of uncertain authorship, which while one of many possible hypotheses has not provided as much convincing evidence as the alternative hypotheses. That's not to say that it's not the case, but rather that any balanced and reasonable judgement of the situation would lead to a different conclusion then you have arrived at.
Edit: removed smiley that wasn't meant to be there.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1So just because you find something really really big and strange it has to be god who did it? Ome on, stop being a chump, every thing you came up with is easily explained by evolution (even the atmosphere, which was originally quite toxic). If you've bothered to look into this issue at all you'd have encountered all of the arguments against. I gotta go to work, if you're still here, I'll answer each of your concerns individually if I must.
I submit to you that we can know that God exists. Some assert that there is not enough evidence for proof that such is in existence; however this response will attempt to submit that very evidence that is supposedly lacking. It may be that those who would say that there is no proof that God exists, care not to examine or even look for such evidence. ...[text shortened]... s absolutely overwhelming evidence for an intelligent Designer: that Designer is God.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Backward thinking process alert!!
I submit to you that we can know that God exists. Some assert that there is not enough evidence for proof that such is in existence; however this response will attempt to submit that very evidence that is supposedly lacking. It may be that those who would say that there is no proof that God exists, care not to examine or even look for such evidence. ...[text shortened]... s absolutely overwhelming evidence for an intelligent Designer: that Designer is God.
Isn't it remarkable that we don't live in the sea because our lungs would be useless for underwater breathing.
Likewise, isn't it incredible that fish have gills which filters-out just the right amount of oxygen from water. If fish had to live out of water, the same oxygen in higher doses would suffocate them.
Please try to at least think before you post
🙂