Originally posted by twhiteheadYou know there are aliens? If you accept that part of scripture you
No, Adam sinned so God cursed the earth and all living things on it. I wonder if aliens are cancer free or if Gods curse covered the entire universe.
should also accept that this life is only temporal as well, the enduring
life is to come.
Kelly
Originally posted by snowinscotlandThere isn't faith in faith unless you want to attempt to use your
I think you are missing the point. You have faith that you are right, and your faith tells you that you are right, so your faith in your faith is more unshaken and so it is right... etc etc
And that's what the suicide bomber's faith tells them.... perhaps they are right, but then that might make you wrong..?!!
faith as a genie in a bottle, faith is that you grasp reality for what it
is, that you know right from wrong, that you understand and grasp
what is before you to where you believe you understand it. To trust
in certain truths, or man, or God it is part of who we are, just as you
have eyes to see you have faith, it is in who or what we put it in that
seperates us.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoWhat I think is no one knows how old the earth is, as many things
Now I'm really curious.
If you don't base your faith for the earth being 6k years old on the Bible, where did you arrive at this conclusion? And about dinosaurs and men coexisting?
that people have said about the age of the universe and its basic
makeup, or simply the way life and the universe are put together
it still looks more like they were crafted by design and created
than not to me. It makes sense much more than it does it is all a
huge happy accident due to the laws of universe and physics over
time.
Those that I have studied under believe in the gap theory, which
makes the universe billions of years old with the dinosaurs living
ages ago. It would be easy to accept, except I still have to say that
each time someone brings up a point to say this method shows us
the universe is billions of years old, I look at them and they are
built upon assumptions and could be wrong. That said, you can believe
whatever you will, it does not mean your wrong, but that it is a matter
of belief only when looking at the distant past.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe question is nevertheless a good one:
You know there are aliens? If you accept that part of scripture you
should also accept that this life is only temporal as well, the enduring
life is to come.
Kelly
1. God designs the earth, living things and man. Supposedly a perfect God does a fairly good job of it.
2. Man sins (imperfect?).
3. God gets upset and makes a complete mess of his perfect designs by making them imperfect (cancer etc).
4. Christian comes along, sees imperfect design but nevertheless concludes that there 'must be a designer'.
The odd thing is the imperfections created by God due to Adams sin are exactly in line with the predictions of the Theory of Evolution. Maybe after Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, God decided to go in for a bit of deception so as to ensure that Adams new found knowledge would not let him get too conceited.
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't think you can see it.
We all base what we think is right and wrong based on all that is us,
and yes faith is part of you as it is me. I believe that the Bible is the
Word of God, others have other things they also rely on, does that
change anything, it is part of who we are. I do not understand your
continued question, if you do not know how to figure out right and
wrong for yourself, you should be careful some one else will tell you.
Kelly
You insist that faith makes everything equal; eg faith that the world is thousands of years old is as valid(or indeed better) as the faith that makes the world millions or billions of years old.
Yet you also insist that your faith is more valid than the faith of the suicide bomber, you feel you can make a judgement that they are wrong and you are right.
I cannot understand how can you reconcile these views. Do you think that the bible was written by God?
Originally posted by snowinscotlandYou do not ever see me saying faith makes everything equal! I do not
I don't think you can see it.
You insist that faith makes everything equal; eg faith that the world is thousands of years old is as valid(or indeed better) as the faith that makes the world millions or billions of years old.
Yet you also insist that your faith is more valid than the faith of the suicide bomber, you feel you can make a judgemen ...[text shortened]... t understand how can you reconcile these views. Do you think that the bible was written by God?
believe that is the case, and if that is how you view faith I doubt you
are even putting in any effort in understanding anything beyond your
own prejudce concerning the topic. Simply seeing two different things
accepted as a belief does not make them both equal, all that means
is that they have to be taken on faith. I do however will not accept
something as factual when it isn't, and have it passed off as
something other than what it really is.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadGod designs it, God starts the repair process, and once it is fixed it
The question is nevertheless a good one:
1. God designs the earth, living things and man. Supposedly a perfect God does a fairly good job of it.
2. Man sins (imperfect?).
3. God gets upset and makes a complete mess of his perfect designs by making them imperfect (cancer etc).
4. Christian comes along, sees imperfect design but nevertheless concludes t ...[text shortened]... deception so as to ensure that Adams new found knowledge would not let him get too conceited.
will last forever with all the important parts intact. The break or sin
is but a small bump in the road of forever.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayCorrect me if I am wrong, but you do constantly remind people on this forum that, in your view, their 'faith' in eg the evidence for an 'old' earth is no better than your faith in eg the fact that God wrote(or caused to be written) the bible.
You do not ever see me saying faith makes everything equal! I do not
believe that is the case, and if that is how you view faith I doubt you
are even putting in any effort in understanding anything beyond your
own prejudce concerning the topic. Simply seeing two different things
accepted as a belief does not make them both equal, all that means
is that ...[text shortened]... actual when it isn't, and have it passed off as
something other than what it really is.
Kelly
All I am saying is that you do not seem to see your own judgement getting in the way. The suicide bomber has faith galore, but "it don't make it so"; and they have committed a lot more to their faith....
The difference between the first two is that one will always be faith, whereas the other is likely to be increasingly resolved beyond reasonable doubt. Please don't misunderstand me, that does not change one iota your faith, simply acknowledges it for what it is and will always be :- faith. The second point above demonstrates that, in your eyes, faith can be 'wrong'. I don't see the difficulty here.
5 edits
Originally posted by snowinscotlandI tell them what they have is not a fact but a belief, it is a matter of
Correct me if I am wrong, but you do constantly remind people on this forum that, in your view, their 'faith' in eg the evidence for an 'old' earth is no better than your faith in eg the fact that God wrote(or caused to be written) the bible.
All I am saying is that you do not seem to see your own judgement getting in the way. The suicide bomber ha monstrates that, in your eyes, faith can be 'wrong'. I don't see the difficulty here.
faith, that does not at all make the claim that what they have is more,
less, or equal to anything’s validity. What you 'believe' the body of
your belief rests on the facts that we have before us, such as what
you are holding in your hand and what you believe to be true, which
may or may not be accurate, as well as what you cannot prove or know
is true or false.
Since I cannot prove that because of God the Bible was written, it is a
belief for me correct. God is also part of my world view on the universe
itself since I accept God as the first cause of all things created that
God Himself was not caused, but always was the same, is the same,
and always will be the same.
With respect to what the suicide bomber thinks about according to his
faith, think of it in terms as his opinion the words carry close to the
same meaning in some respect, but they are not quite the same. He
is going to have his as you have yours, I mine, we act out lives by
faith, we carry ourselves acting upon life and each other by the beliefs
about those things we have accepted and by those we have rejected.
With some things there is a level of trust according to those things
around us, that which we can see and handle, weight or measure after
some fashion; however, we start off with some beliefs that setup the
foundation towards how things are looked at initially, that which we
bring to the table before the testing begins, things that cannot be
shown right or wrong, it colors all things before us and we act upon
them due to our foundational beliefs.
With respect to faith being wrong, I have been saying that all along, I
guess you have not seen it for whatever reason. I have repeatedly
said that because something is a matter of faith that does not mean
at all if it is either right or wrong, that is the nature of faith, if it were
provable or factual, it would not be a matter of faith or belief. Going
back to our testing methodologies and faith, I can as I have pointed
out before stress a device and test the rests, make the claim that the
device will now behave as if it were 5 years old, I can also test a
similar device that is 5 years old and see that is true. I can plot how
these devices will behave when they are new, when they are 1 year
old, through 8 years old and stress them to see how they will behave,
and I can also do the same with those devices that are truly that old.
If I’m correct that my stress does indeed allow me to simulate age of
the devices I’m testing I can then during the manufacturing of those
device predict what will occur and how long they can be trusted to
behave. That said, the testing after the stress though it show me how
the devices are behaving does not at all tell me why they are
behaving that way! Is it because of the stress I put the devices under
or because of the age? Without knowing history that readout only
gives us the readout results, it is not an accurate method of gleaning
the age in question, if we don’t know the history we don’t know the
history.
Kelly
Originally posted by PinkFloydI won't start pointing my finger, but the argument is:
Whoaaaa Nelly! Dinosaurs and men co-existing? Who's arguing THAT dead-bang loser? Are the "men" Cro-Magnon? Neanderthal? Homo sapiens ???!!!
There's evidence earth is 6k yers.
Adam and Eve got here from the beggining.
There's evidence dinosaurs existed.
Therefore...
It's kind of logic, if you believe in the "Young Earth" arguments.
Originally posted by KellyJayFrom what I understand, you believe we can't know nothing for sure, so we can't make definite statements about our universe. So, you believe what's in the bible.
What I think is no one knows how old the earth is, as many things
that people have said about the age of the universe and its basic
makeup, or simply the way life and the universe are put together
it still looks more like they were crafted by design and created
than not to me. It makes sense much more than it does it is all a
huge happy accident due to ...[text shortened]... ean your wrong, but that it is a matter
of belief only when looking at the distant past.
Kelly
That's a very thin line, living your whole life based in faith. You can believe whatever you want, but do you really believe thousand of brilliant minds are SO wrong? That all data and methods are wrong and all assumptions are wrong?
You look at the complexity and beauty of the world and you can't comprehend how it got here from mere chance. Well, that's why in light years around us there's not any other planet like ours.
If scientist saw dozens of life abundant planets, that would be suspicious and indicative something must have been messing around with probabilites. But we ARE in fact unique, and rare.
If you can't understand the complexity of our planet , that's a different thing. Scientists got to coherent explanations for almost everything. You think simply creating al this out of thin air is a better explanation then all what science has achieved.
For it to be true, MOST of science HAD to be wrong. Yet technology tells us otherwise. Technology is the confirmation science is right, the living applications men created out of imagination with the approval of knowledge. Tells us quantum mechanics is right, relativity is right, all of physics is right (or at least VERY CLOSE to be right).
Strangely ONLY SOME religious people think science got it all wrong. Don't you think it is odd?
Originally posted by KellyJay'With respect to what the suicide bomber thinks about according to his
I tell them what they have is not a fact but a belief, it is a matter of
faith, that does not at all make the claim that what they have is more,
less, or equal to anything’s validity. What you 'believe' the body of
your belief rests on the facts that we have before us, such as what
you are holding in your hand and what you believe to be true, which
may ...[text shortened]... gleaning
the age in question, if we don’t know the history we don’t know the
history.
Kelly
faith, think of it in terms as his opinion the words carry close to the
same meaning in some respect, but they are not quite the same.'
I don't follow what you mean here. Are you saying there is a difference between your faith and his in terms of meaning?
Originally posted by snowinscotlandNight and day in terms in what he believes and what I do, for example
'With respect to what the suicide bomber thinks about according to his
faith, think of it in terms as his opinion the words carry close to the
same meaning in some respect, but they are not quite the same.'
I don't follow what you mean here. Are you saying there is a difference between your faith and his in terms of meaning?
I believe God sent is only begotten Son so everyone one of us could
be saved, and that Jesus took a horrendous beating and died a
horrible death and rose from the dead for each and every one of us.
This means for me that each of us are the Jesus’ reward for His
suffering. Why than would I feel anyone should be murdered or killed
since Jesus paid such a high price for them if they could be not right
with God when they die? The goal as I see it is to turn people towards
one who loves them which is God, not kill them because they do not
agree with me on a variety of subject matters. The truth is that the
only one that can prove God to another is God, I cannot do it, but I
can point the to the Way which is Jesus Christ.
Kelly
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoI believe we know a great deal, and we do understand and grasp a
From what I understand, you believe we can't know nothing for sure, so we can't make definite statements about our universe. So, you believe what's in the bible.
That's a very thin line, living your whole life based in faith. You can believe whatever you want, but do you really believe thousand of brilliant minds are SO wrong? That all data and methods are ONLY SOME religious people think science got it all wrong. Don't you think it is odd?
great deal about the universe; however, we also assume a great deal
too, and we lift ourselves up a little higher than we should in our
knowledge. It isn't that I think we cannot know anything, or that
reality is beyond our grasp, for example again if I'm holding keys in
my hand, I believe the reality of the matter is I'm holding keys in my
hand. I can get a reading from a test, but depending on that test I
may or may not really grasp what is true about that reading. The more
of the unknown that is in play the less likely it is we grasp all that is
required to know about any given topic.
Science is limited, it is limited by us, we assume much where we really
know a little and rest in our beliefs as if how we paint the universe is
truly the way it really is, or was. Science like water will not rise above
its source and we are the source of science, like any building that is
being built up if the foundation isn't a good one, it can come crashing
down if it gets built up to high upon something faulty.
Science has not given us anything beyond everything out of nothing,
God creating everything out of the power of His Word is more than
out of nothing, it is science that has nothing blowing up into
everything so you have that a little turned around.
Kelly
Originally posted by snowinscotlandMore often than not I'm basically limiting my objections to a test or
Correct me if I am wrong, but you do constantly remind people on this forum that, in your view, their 'faith' in eg the evidence for an 'old' earth is no better than your faith in eg the fact that God wrote(or caused to be written) the bible.
All I am saying is that you do not seem to see your own judgement getting in the way. The suicide bomber ha ...[text shortened]... monstrates that, in your eyes, faith can be 'wrong'. I don't see the difficulty here.
some method where they are making claims about the distant past
due to some reading. Even then I try to add that they could be right,
but what they are showing me does not prove anything, which makes
their conclusions not factual, but a belief or a matter of faith, which as
many here point out could both be either true or false.
Kelly