Originally posted by KellyJayperhaps I phrased that question wrongly.
Night and day in terms in what he believes and what I do, for example
I believe God sent is only begotten Son so everyone one of us could
be saved, and that Jesus took a horrendous beating and died a
horrible death and rose from the dead for each and every one of us.
This means for me that each of us are the Jesus’ reward for His
suffering. Why than wo ...[text shortened]... to another is God, I cannot do it, but I
can point the to the Way which is Jesus Christ.
Kelly
Looking at things from his/her point of view, their faith in what they believe is so great that they are prepared to sacrifice their life for it. What greater faith could there be? In terms of faith and belief, they have it in spades; but still you say they are wrong, and they are wrong because you know your faith is 'right/better/bigger/whatever'.
Do you see it now?
Originally posted by KellyJayAh! So I had it wrong. I assumed that God made a good design in the first place. Now you are telling me that God designed it broken! Maybe "intelligent" design is the wrong word.
God designs it, God starts the repair process, and once it is fixed it
will last forever with all the important parts intact. The break or sin
is but a small bump in the road of forever.
Kelly
So you look at the poorly designed broken world and say "aha! proof of God!"
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell, ID'ers who do not beleive in the Biblical fall into sin are at a loss for an answer. We Christians however posit that with sin everything is running down (entropy, etc.), which goes against evolutionary thinking. It is God's mercy, rather that everything hasn't run down completely yet.
Ah! So I had it wrong. I assumed that God made a good design in the first place. Now you are telling me that God designed it broken! Maybe "intelligent" design is the wrong word.
So you look at the poorly designed broken world and say "aha! proof of God!"
Originally posted by csmatyiWhat do you mean by "running down" and "(entropy etc)"?
Well, ID'ers who do not beleive in the Biblical fall into sin are at a loss for an answer. We Christians however posit that with sin everything is running down (entropy, etc.), which goes against evolutionary thinking. It is God's mercy, rather that everything hasn't run down completely yet.
Or are you just being intentionally vague because you haven't got a clue what you are talking about?
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt was all very good, and it broke, the break occured when sin entered.
Ah! So I had it wrong. I assumed that God made a good design in the first place. Now you are telling me that God designed it broken! Maybe "intelligent" design is the wrong word.
So you look at the poorly designed broken world and say "aha! proof of God!"
I look at the world and see it as cursed, but believe it had at one time
been a thing without blemish. So that some of the things that are
occuring in it now are wrong. It goes back to free will, and God giving
that to His creation.
Kelly
Originally posted by snowinscotlandWe place our faith in things, people, the way we believe we grasp the
perhaps I phrased that question wrongly.
Looking at things from his/her point of view, their faith in what they believe is so great that they are prepared to sacrifice their life for it. What greater faith could there be? In terms of faith and belief, they have it in spades; but still you say they are wrong, and they are wrong because you know your faith is 'right/better/bigger/whatever'.
Do you see it now?
truth and it is (fill in the blank) on any given subject. Once we settle
in on our world view of the universe we live our lives accordingly, we
walk out our faith in this world. So can we be wrong in what we believe
in, can our judgments be flawed, can we trust something that is not
really trustworthy, walk out our faith in a way that is according to
reality an error, yes of course we can.
Kelly
3 edits
Originally posted by csmatyiDepending on how you think it is occurring I'm not sure I'd agree with
Well, ID'ers who do not beleive in the Biblical fall into sin are at a loss for an answer. We Christians however posit that with sin everything is running down (entropy, etc.), which goes against evolutionary thinking. It is God's mercy, rather that everything hasn't run down completely yet.
you. How do you know that all change is a step forward? We know
there is change, but does that mean it is a step forward? We could be
seeing cancer and other odds and ends due to the fact that the
change that is taking place is doing so as life breaks down over time
not progress too. Simply seeing life fight off some things does not
mean there is a progression taking place, that simply could have
always been part of the life's process and abilities, which it is losing
now. Seeing the movement of change does not mean we can at a
glance know which is occurring progression or digression. Having life
loss its ablities makes more sense too when you look at the fossil
record that would explain the gaps rather nicely.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayBut thats what I said and you replied to the post, omitting that step.
It was all very good, and it broke, the break occured when sin entered.
I look at the world and see it as cursed, but believe it had at one time
been a thing without blemish. So that some of the things that are
occurring in it now are wrong. It goes back to free will, and God giving
that to His creation.
Kelly
Exactly what my original post said.
So why doesn't someone come up with a new hypothesis similar to the ID folds and call it "cursed design"?
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadPicking up from the running down question, how do you know that
What do you mean by "running down" and "(entropy etc)"?
Or are you just being intentionally vague because you haven't got a clue what you are talking about?
all life isn't running down over time and that running down is causing
the changes we see in species and diseases and so on? It would also
explain the gaps in fossil record too, the only issue I see for that to
a be a viable option is that it fits the creation story over the big bang
theory a little better, but even that would not clinch a belief in either.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead"Perfect," on its own, is a wonderfully vague adjective. Pangloss made a whole carreer off of it. After all, maybe the most perfect Creation is one that fails.
But thats what I said and you replied to the post, omitting that step.
[b]I look at the world and see it as cursed, but believe it had at one time
been a thing without blemish. So that some of the things that are
occurring in it now are wrong. It goes back to free will, and God giving
that to His creation.
Kelly
Exactly what my original post s ...[text shortened]... 't someone come up with a new hypothesis similar to the ID folds and call it "cursed design"?[/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheadI call it a cursed design, I do not call myself an ID person but a
But thats what I said and you replied to the post, omitting that step.
[b]I look at the world and see it as cursed, but believe it had at one time
been a thing without blemish. So that some of the things that are
occurring in it now are wrong. It goes back to free will, and God giving
that to His creation.
Kelly
Exactly what my original post s ...[text shortened]... 't someone come up with a new hypothesis similar to the ID folds and call it "cursed design"?[/b]
creationist. Even a ID person argument is that much of what we see
is simply to good to have happened just out of shear chance over
time. Just like seeing a bunch of rocks laying on the ground, we see
that all the time, accident and chance or design, who knows, but when
we see a bunch of large white rocks layed out in a design that says,
"Welcome to Hoopeston" we might think someone did that.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you test 10000 independent devices and plot each of the devices's age you'll get a distribution.
I tell them what they have is not a fact but a belief, it is a matter of
faith, that does not at all make the claim that what they have is more,
less, or equal to anything’s validity. What you 'believe' the body of
your belief rests on the facts that we have before us, such as what
you are holding in your hand and what you believe to be true, which
may ...[text shortened]... gleaning
the age in question, if we don’t know the history we don’t know the
history.
Kelly
Unless you assume someone has been stressing them on purpose, you can get information about the average age of the devices. That's statistics. It's excellent exactly because we don't know the age of the devices.
If 99.9% of the results say the device is 1 million years old, your arguments goes down the drain. That's what happens in science. Statistic results are made and inferences are made and errors calculated. Can you understand this statistic concept?
Originally posted by csmatyiTo you have any idea what entropy is?
Well, ID'ers who do not beleive in the Biblical fall into sin are at a loss for an answer. We Christians however posit that with sin everything is running down (entropy, etc.), which goes against evolutionary thinking. It is God's mercy, rather that everything hasn't run down completely yet.