26 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidOh dear, KellyJay. Why have you resorted to trying to take the piss?
The ONLY important part of this is God real, does He enter into the lives that turn to Him all of their hearts. You can say you did that, but you would be once again calling God a liar and fraud because had you, there would have been no denying experience.
How on Earth do you honestly think I am "calling God a liar and fraud"?
26 Apr 22
@fmf saidWe are talking about something outside of us coming into us, God, and you are only looking at it in the one place He isn't, in you. So for you, all of this is just something you thought about, no different than a math problem; you thought the answer was this, now you think it's that. A relationship with God requires God; a Christian to be a Christian requires Christ; you have said that was not real, it was only between your ears, you once thought so, but not anymore, you admit He was not something you lost only the belief about Him. Had He been in your life, had He been a reality, your conversation would be different. You have reduced it to a matter of intellectual acceptance, not a reality, not something real, only a warm and fuzzy thought, maybe.
Losing faith is "just like getting a math problem right you once thought wrong"??
26 Apr 22
@fmf saidNote: I'm not asking you what I believe; I'm asking about God. Is He real? Does He come into those that call on His name, search for Him with all of their hearts?
Oh dear, KellyJay. Why have you resorted to trying to take the piss?
How on Earth do you honestly think I am "calling God a liar and fraud"?
26 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidI am fully aware of what the tenets of your faith are.
We are talking about something outside of us coming into us, God, and you are only looking at it in the one place He isn't, in you. So for you, all of this is just something you thought about, no different than a math problem; you thought the answer was this, now you think it's that. A relationship with God requires God; a Christian to be a Christian requires Christ; you hav ...[text shortened]... ef about Him. Had He been in your life, had He been a reality, your conversation would be different.
26 Apr 22
@fmf saidYou keep resorting to what I believe and what you believe, and there is where you are content to keep the conversation, but it isn't about that! God being real, Jesus being a historical person who was before He came here was the Word of God becoming a man, dying and rose again. The contention is Jesus entering into someone not that they have thoughts about Him which all you ever do, is talk about your thoughts about Him, and claiming that is all any of us do. While I'm telling you, the reality of Jesus in our lives isn't a fiction, but a reality, and if you never knew Him, if all you had were thoughts about Him, that is all you ever had. Repeating myself, I read your posts, and that is what I get out of them. You deny Jesus was ever more than a thought you had that you corrected in your life.
Why are you being so daft and disingenuous? We have been conversing for over a decade. Why are you asking me if I believe "God is real"? Have you never read any of my posts?
26 Apr 22
@divegeester saidPerhaps you don't know what makes someone a Christian, you throw away much of the Bible you don't like, so it wouldn't be too difficult to get there being clueless about that. Tell me, dive, what makes someone a Christian? What does it take to be a real one instead of someone making a claim, or is there no difference in your mind? If you cannot answer these questions, nothing I say to you about my conversation with FMF; if I were to talk to you about him would matter, it would go right over your head.
I do take him at his word and he says he was a committed Christian.
Perhaps you are too quick to judge and wrong to do so.
26 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidI am well aware of what the tenets of your faith are.
God being real, Jesus being a historical person who was before He came here was the Word of God becoming a man, dying and rose again. The contention is Jesus entering into someone not that they have thoughts about Him which all you ever do, is talk about your thoughts about Him, and claiming that is all any of us do.
The way I see it your faith boils down to thoughts you have about Jesus, and consequent thoughts you have about yourself.
These thoughts include very strong convictions about Jesus being "alive" and "in" you and Jesus personally being responsible for good things that happen to you.
I understand what faith actually is more keenly than you seem to realize.
26 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidWell, gosh, KellyJay, I am an agnostic atheist now, sure.
You deny Jesus was ever more than a thought you had that you corrected in your life.
Of course, when I was a believer, I didn't realize that my faith was just an elaborate function of cognition.
Like you, I believed supernatural beings and phenomena were at work "in" me and all around me.
Just like you believe those things to be real and true in your life.
28 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidWhy the capitals, I can read lower case just as easily.
AGAIN, today we find simpler cell life forms next to much more complex; one does not automatically mean older; we find both in our lifetimes' side by side even now. We can assume the dating is true; that does nothing to validate the newer ones came from, the older ones in question.
Even if I grant to you old and simpler before new more complex, the mechanism for these to ...[text shortened]... out; the gap of how hard it is getting bigger, not smaller.
You didn't watch the link; I take it?
I think your understanding of how evolution works is fundamentally flawed, and I don't need you to 'grant' me anything. For one thing there is no 'error checking' because there are are self - evidently 'errors', which we see commonly in our own species. These 'errors' are what keep the whole thing going. And indeed life has evolved in a hostile environment, which is why most species that have existed aren't here anymore. Some have evolved into other species, some have simply become extinct, such is the nature of nature; evolution is unconscious and unforgiving, survival of the fittest, natural selection, it's a tough world....
I have never said that 'we cannot know how'. You may deny the science all you wish, but it isn't going to go away, and the fact that the more we know and understand the more we understand that there is more to know and understand is a challenge for science, nothing more or less than that.
You and I are intelligent apes, (the latest in a long line) the most intelligent creatures ever to have evolved, and we have begun to ask 'the big questions'. You believe that which was written in a story book a few thousand years ago, which in terms of our future knowledge is a dead end. Science is a ceaseless quest for discovery, which has taken us so far down the road, but the road goes on, and that for me is far more exciting.
And no, I don't watch links, we can all post links backing our point of view, I'm only interested in hearing what other people here have to say.
28 Apr 22
@indonesia-phil saidI'm not sure you know as much as you think if you claim there is no error checking in biology. Error checking is required for almost any functionally complex process to continue without falling apart; there are biological feedback loops in life, and it is a requirement for cell replication. There are checks in so many parts of life; these act like signs signaling the start and stop of processes. Do you think blood clotting has a starting mechanism that occurs for no reason or stops when required without cause?
Why the capitals, I can read lower case just as easily.
I think your understanding of how evolution works is fundamentally flawed, and I don't need you to 'grant' me anything. For one thing there is no 'error checking' because there are are self - evidently 'errors', which we see commonly in our own species. These 'errors' are what keep the whole thing going. And in ...[text shortened]... links backing our point of view, I'm only interested in hearing what other people here have to say.
Feedback loop signals stop and start many things occurring at the right time and ending when it is supposed to for the body to form. If it starts when not called for, blood clots could occur; you'll bleed out if it doesn't stop. There has to be a working template, to begin with, for every biological life form so that all of the cells form and replicate as they should occur at the right time and place; you believe all of that happens out of dumb luck?
When a lifeform has a particular biological shape, and you believe that it can change into something else, the mechanisms behind that are not as simple as you are making it to be. During the formation of life, to build a new animal during the process, if the thing gets changed too early in the process, everything downstream could be dramatically affected; if the changes occur late in the process, the body forming has already taken place.
Well, I'm glad you are willing to listen to what I have to say; the guy I pointed to was a chemist, some of his talk was about abiogenesis, and one of his main points was about how chemicals do not evolve; they react.
At the beginning of the evolutionary process, all of the necessary information for biological life has to be put into biology. So far, how an unguided mindless chemical reaction could ever do it is a matter of blind faith; there is nothing remotely close to identifying how it could ever occur.
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28 Apr 22
@fmf saidIt was perhaps incorrect of me, some short while ago, to assume that this was somehow connected to your own personal affairs, as opposed to your just capriciously [as if some inner psychological and galvanic spasm had overcome your well-cultivated ethical bounds] tossing a smokebomb into the mental gardens of certain others.
A: Chris and Donna have got divorced after 25 years.
B: Divorced? Well, then. They were never truly in love.
A: Oh yeah?
B: If they WERE ever truly in love, then they wouldn't be divorced now.
A: Things changed between them in the last year or two.
B: I don't care.
A: They were the happiest couple I knew for 23 years, totally in love.
B: Well, never mind tha ...[text shortened]... ve.
A: How can you make that claim?
B: Because I am STILL in love with my spouse.
Thoughts?
29 Apr 22
@kevin-eleven saidWell, one thing I discovered was he wasn't interested in the thoughts that caused; he had specifics in mind.
It was perhaps incorrect of me, some short while ago, to assume that this was somehow connected to your own personal affairs, as opposed to your just capriciously [as if some inner psychological and galvanic spasm had overcome your well-cultivated ethical bounds] tossing a smokebomb into the mental gardens of certain others.