29 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidI have engaged you fully on your thoughts on the OP's allegory for loss of faith. When I wrote the OP, I specifically had in mind what your thoughts would be because they were what I was interested in.
Well, one thing I discovered was he wasn't interested in the thoughts that caused; he had specifics in mind.
29 Apr 22
@fmf said"Come on, KellyJay, you know full well that this thread is not really about divorce."
I have engaged you fully on your thoughts on the OP's allegory for loss of faith. When I wrote the OP, I specifically had in mind what your thoughts would be because they were what I was interested in.
Please we had to go 20 rounds at the beginning.
02 May 22
@kellyjay saidSo what do you think happens? Does your god sit up there in his heaven 24/7 checking the billions upon billions (upon billions) of cellular interactions which occur each second all over the world, and decide how many flowers Mrs Smith's Geranium is going to have this year? Does he start people bleeding and then stop them when he feels like it?
I'm not sure you know as much as you think if you claim there is no error checking in biology. Error checking is required for almost any functionally complex process to continue without falling apart; there are biological feedback loops in life, and it is a requirement for cell replication. There are checks in so many parts of life; these act like signs signaling the start a ...[text shortened]... is a matter of blind faith; there is nothing remotely close to identifying how it could ever occur.
If so he makes a lot of mistakes, and by the by even you and I aren't exact 'copies' anymore. Unless you are of pure African descent, you (and I) are probably about 2% Neanderthal, (we'd have to test for the exact % , it varies between individuals) We are no longer made in the image of your god, we're off by a couple of percent.
I never said any of natures' processes were 'simple' , and you may call it 'dumb luck' if you wish, I prefer to call it, well, natures' processes. If you want to use that kind of phraseology, your being a Christian is only a matter of 'dumb luck. I don't know about chemicals evolving, I didn't think they did, I'm not a chemist, but chemicals are a part of the 'thing', they are not the thing itself.
Anyway we go 'round in circles with this discussion, so I'm gone after this. I leave you with your talking snakes, and your virgin births, and all of the other impossibilities which you think are possible because some bloke said they happened ; I've responded to all of your statements and questions, and unless you are going to start responding to some of mine, there's really no further point to any of this.
I leave you in friendship, and probably see you somewhere else.
02 May 22
@indonesia-phil saidDo you know anything else that writes informational code to direct ongoing
So what do you think happens? Does your god sit up there in his heaven 24/7 checking the billions upon billions (upon billions) of cellular interactions which occur each second all over the world, and decide how many flowers Mrs Smith's Geranium is going to have this year? Does he start people bleeding and then stop them when he feels like it?
If so he makes a lot ...[text shortened]... no further point to any of this.
I leave you in friendship, and probably see you somewhere else.
processes that appear from some mindless source, other than your blind faith in
evolution? Like all ongoing coded informational processes, it gets coded, and as it is
written, it performs as written. Over time mistakes occur, leading to system
malfunctions, not an ever-increasing improvement over time, which you are
suggesting. The evidence you are bringing to the discussion is not something that
shows mindlessness could ever be responsible for it, so all of life coming out of
no life, into a process that, under no supervision, with no goal, against all odds,
takes life and improves it over time, which hands down is by far a greater
supernatural event than any snake talking under some spiritual control of another.
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@indonesia-phil saidRemember gravity cannot be explained and no one knows where it comes from or what causes it.
I never said any of natures' processes were 'simple' , and you may call it 'dumb luck' if you wish, I prefer to call it, well, natures' processes.
At least that’s what someone has told poor KellyJay, who has believed it.
03 May 22
@divegeester saidThe source of everything is unaccounted for without God, so any explanation that
Remember gravity cannot be explained and no one knows where it comes from or what causes it.
At least that’s what someone has told poor KellyJay, who has believed it.
cannot be given through natural means shows a supernatural source, that makes all
of creation of the universe evidence for a supernatural event. It is just as evident
when looking at the instructions in life, we know every time we see the written word
or code for functionally complex systems, a mind is behind it, so seeing code drive
all of lives processes, even in a state of decay where errors occur, still show it was
not done by a mindless source.
03 May 22
@kellyjay saidSeeing as the "source of everything" is unknown to both of us, the assertion that it is "unaccounted for without God" is just speculative and subjective on your part.
The source of everything is unaccounted for without God, so any explanation thatcannot be given through natural means shows a supernatural source, that makes allof creation of the universe evidence for a supernatural event.
Having said that, I do think that, relatively speaking, the best evidence that theists [of any stripe, and not just yours] have ~ that they can point to as evidence of the existence of their God figures ~ is the universe and human consciousness.
03 May 22
@indonesia-phil said" I prefer to call it, well, natures' processes."
So what do you think happens? Does your god sit up there in his heaven 24/7 checking the billions upon billions (upon billions) of cellular interactions which occur each second all over the world, and decide how many flowers Mrs Smith's Geranium is going to have this year? Does he start people bleeding and then stop them when he feels like it?
If so he makes a lot ...[text shortened]... no further point to any of this.
I leave you in friendship, and probably see you somewhere else.
Unless you are calling nature a mindful source, you have said nothing here.
@kellyjay saidAm I getting under you skin or something? I was going to leave your latest load of nonsense be and let you have the last word, but then you had another go further down the page, which suggests something else.
Do you know anything else that writes informational code to direct ongoing
processes that appear from some mindless source, other than your blind faith in
evolution? Like all ongoing coded informational processes, it gets coded, and as it is
written, it performs as written. Over time mistakes occur, leading to system
malfunctions, not an ever-increasing improvement over ...[text shortened]... by far a greater
supernatural event than any snake talking under some spiritual control of another.
So here's a question: If your god is up there directing all of the copying from one generation to the next, why do they make so many mistakes? Even you must concede that 'mistakes' happen; children are born with deformities, malfunctioning organs and so on, and that's just our species, so why does your god in all of their omnipotence and omniscience get it wrong? One would have thought that after all of these billions of years they might have got the hang of it, but apparently not.
So how do you feel about the whole Neanderthal thing? Are you cool with the idea of being part Neanderthal, or does this raise any theological difficulties for you?
What becomes increasingly clear reading your posts is that you don't really understand how or why evolution 'works', and as the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. And we're back to talking snakes again, I see. So how about singing salamanders, orating ostriches; once you start down that road, the possibilities are endless...Anyway, the questions are there for you to answer, if you decide to answer them, if not, please don't do another of your 'I don't understand it so god must have done it' posts, we've read enough of those.
06 May 22
@indonesia-phil saidHe created a world put us in charge of it, and before the first child was born we screwed it up. So instead of everything pointing towards life it is now all pointing towards death in a state of decay.
Am I getting under you skin or something? I was going to leave your latest load of nonsense be and let you have the last word, but then you had another go further down the page, which suggests something else.
So here's a question: If your god is up there directing all of the copying from one generation to the next, why do they make so many mistakes? Even you must c ...[text shortened]... another of your 'I don't understand it so god must have done it' posts, we've read enough of those.
09 May 22
@kellyjay saidOh dear, you must have been on a real downer when you wrote this one....Don't get too hung up on this 'original sin' thing, it can mess with your head, I've seen it happen to people. Life shouldn't be one big guilt trip.
He created a world put us in charge of it, and before the first child was born we screwed it up. So instead of everything pointing towards life it is now all pointing towards death in a state of decay.
So no answers to any of my questions, then, which comes as no surprise, but did you even think about them? I hoped that we might get into it, but never mind.
Anyway, free your mind, brother, and FFS cheer up, it might never happen....
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@kellyjay saidGravity is fully accounted for by science, same as DNA, same as electricity, same as the weather.
The source of everything is unaccounted for without God, so any explanation that
cannot be given through natural means shows a supernatural source, that makes all
of creation of the universe evidence for a supernatural event. It is just as evident
when looking at the instructions in life, we know every time we see the written word
or code for functionally complex system ...[text shortened]... sses, even in a state of decay where errors occur, still show it was
not done by a mindless source.