1. Standard membervivify
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    18 Jun '15 18:291 edit
    With all the Christians here complaining about each and every single thought experiment here as being a "ploy" and thus, refusing to answer the question, let me ask: how often do the atheists here do this?

    Ever notice that no matter how many idiotic posts RJ Hinds makes about evolution--- Youtube links to people making horrible arguments, rehashing well-refuted arguments, etc.;---that atheists STILL answer questions about them?

    Simply put: on this forum, how often do atheists refuse to answer simple questions from theists? And secondly, if atheists do refuse to answer questions, is it anywhere near as often as Christians?

    Lastly, are there ANY questions you theists believe atheists are too afraid too answer? If so, what are they?
  2. Account suspended
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    18 Jun '15 21:191 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    With all the Christians here complaining about each and every single thought experiment here as being a "ploy" and thus, refusing to answer the question, let me ask: how often do the atheists here do this?

    Ever notice that no matter how many idiotic posts RJ Hinds makes about evolution--- Youtube links to people making horrible arguments, rehashing well-re ...[text shortened]... ere ANY questions you theists believe atheists are too afraid too answer? If so, what are they?
    I dont think it matters whether one is an atheist or a christian, either an argument is logical, rational and reasonable or its not. People have their own perspectives, R J Hinds included.
  3. Standard memberDasa
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    18 Jun '15 21:26
    Originally posted by vivify
    With all the Christians here complaining about each and every single thought experiment here as being a "ploy" and thus, refusing to answer the question, let me ask: how often do the atheists here do this?

    Ever notice that no matter how many idiotic posts RJ Hinds makes about evolution--- Youtube links to people making horrible arguments, rehashing well-re ...[text shortened]... ere ANY questions you theists believe atheists are too afraid too answer? If so, what are they?
    Yes.............here is my question.

    Like begets like (apples from apple trees and kittens from cats etc)

    Like-wise consciousness begets consciousnesses.

    God is the Supreme Consciousness which is the (cause of all causes) and the source of all consciousness.

    Tell us all in this forum where consciousness and mind come from?
  4. Standard membervivify
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    18 Jun '15 21:351 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I dont think it matters whether one is an atheist or a christian, either an argument is logical, rational and reasonable or its not. People have their own perspectives, R J Hinds included.
    Can you think of ONE question in the entire time you've been at RHP that atheists here collectively refused to answer?
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    18 Jun '15 21:53
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Yes.............here is my question.

    Like begets like (apples from apple trees and kittens from cats etc)

    Like-wise consciousness begets consciousnesses.

    God is the Supreme Consciousness which is the (cause of all causes) and the source of all consciousness.

    Tell us all in this forum where consciousness and mind come from?
    Kittens come from cats.

    But not all kittens are alike, in fact they are all subtly [or not so subtly] different from one another,
    and from their parents.

    The offspring of those kittens [now cats] will be different again.

    The parents of the cats that 'begat' the first kittens in our story were different again.

    Over many generations as one goes back in time, those tiny differences add up and so the creatures now
    are significantly different from the creatures then.

    As you go further and further back in time the differences get larger and larger until what you have is a
    completely different species than modern day cats.

    This is evolution at work, slowly adapting and optimising creatures to ever changing environments and
    thus slowly changing their forms to create new species and diversity.

    'Minds' and 'Consciousness' are not yet fully understood consequences of huge and intricate networks
    of nerve cells [neurons] that work together to control the behaviour of complex organisms.

    Those modern large complex networks have their ancestors in smaller simpler networks, which have their
    ancestors in even smaller and simpler networks... Eventually going back to the first simple nerve clusters
    of a few cells. [as well as other even 'simpler' messaging systems]
    And we can see examples of every stage in both the fossil record and in creatures living still today with
    body plans and designs that stem from an earlier time and are basically unchanged since then.

    All of this evolved.

    I know you will never understand or accept this, but it's been proven beyond any and all reasonable doubt
    for those willing to look. The fact that you do not accept this answer does not mean that we don't have an
    answer, or that it is wrong.

    Questions asked and answered.
  6. Standard memberDasa
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    18 Jun '15 22:07
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Kittens come from cats.

    But not all kittens are alike, in fact they are all subtly [or not so subtly] different from one another,
    and from their parents.

    The offspring of those kittens [now cats] will be different again.

    The parents of the cats that 'begat' the first kittens in our story were different again.

    Over many generations as one go ...[text shortened]... s not mean that we don't have an
    answer, or that it is wrong.

    Questions asked and answered.
    No no no no.................In truth apples have always come from apple trees>Sir

    You have cleverly side stepped the question.

    We know nerves exist.............they are just pathways.

    Nerves are not consciousness or mind. (stop talking about nerves please.)

    AND AGAIN.................Where does consciousness and mind come from?
  7. Standard membervivify
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    18 Jun '15 22:14
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Yes.............here is my question.

    Like begets like (apples from apple trees and kittens from cats etc)

    Like-wise consciousness begets consciousnesses.

    God is the Supreme Consciousness which is the (cause of all causes) and the source of all consciousness.

    Tell us all in this forum where consciousness and mind come from?
    You don't know that YOUR god is the source of this"consciousness". That's where your whole argument falls apart.
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    18 Jun '15 22:16
    Originally posted by Dasa
    No no no no.................In truth apples have always come from apple trees>Sir

    You have cleverly side stepped the question.

    We know nerves exist.............they are just pathways.

    Nerves are not consciousness or mind. (stop talking about nerves please.)

    AND AGAIN.................Where does consciousness and mind come from?
    Denying the truth wont change it.

    Evolution is real, verified, fact.

    I didn't sidestep the question, I corrected your factual mistakes.

    What you claim is not fact, but fiction.

    I will talk about whatever I want to talk about, with or without your 'permission'.
    In this case you asked about minds and consciousness which are emergent phenomena
    of the interactions of large numbers of neurons [specialist nerve cells] under the right conditions.
    [although they may be possible under different circumstances, as they might also be possible
    to create on a sufficiently enabled computer]
    Therefore talking about nerve cells is entirely appropriate, and necessary.

    You are also rude and dishonest, as well as an advocator of genocide and a generally
    deeply unpleasant excuse for a human being.
    I consistently hope you get permanently banned.
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    18 Jun '15 22:16
    Originally posted by vivify
    You don't know that YOUR god is the source of this"consciousness". That's where your whole argument falls apart.
    No, it falls apart WAY before you get there.

    It just ALSO falls apart at that point.
  10. Standard membervivify
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    18 Jun '15 22:55
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    No, it falls apart WAY before you get there.

    It just ALSO falls apart at that point.
    So even though you think this idea completely falls apart at every point, you still answered the question? Is almost like you're not afraid to put your beliefs up to scrutiny.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jun '15 23:021 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Can you think of ONE question in the entire time you've been at RHP that atheists here collectively refused to answer?
    Yes.

    "Why do you reject God?"

    I know from whence I speak, because it was my thread.
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jun '15 23:07
    Originally posted by vivify
    You don't know that YOUR god is the source of this"consciousness". That's where your whole argument falls apart.
    And yet you refuse to answer his question. Are you afraid? Was it a 'ploy'?
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jun '15 23:101 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    So even though you think this idea completely falls apart at every point, you still answered the question? Is almost like you're not afraid to put your beliefs up to scrutiny.
    Did he actually answer the question? I don't see an actual answer. Maybe he IS afraid. Maybe it IS a 'ploy'.

    "What you claim is not fact, but fiction." is not an answer, but it sounds amazingly familiar.
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    18 Jun '15 23:331 edit
    Originally posted by Dasa
    No no no no.................In truth apples have always come from apple trees>Sir

    You have cleverly side stepped the question.

    We know nerves exist.............they are just pathways.

    Nerves are not consciousness or mind. (stop talking about nerves please.)

    AND AGAIN.................Where does consciousness and mind come from?
    Many of the questions asked by you are deeper than the average discussion on this forum. Nobody should expect the average non-theist to be able to cover the topic in this adversarial format. If you really want a metaphysical, philosophical answer to which you can make a belief-commitment, do your own research. I suggest a Google search on these words, without parentheses:

    consciousness mind emergent

    And look at "scholarly articles" and other academic discussions of emergentism

    And you will be able to bring yourself up to date with one of the major non-theistic theories.

    There is a problem inherent in this discussion.

    It is a difference in our idea of what makes a "reply" an "answer."

    Science will never deliver an answer that satisfies the spiritual world's idea of what an answer is. (As "spiritual" is meant on this forum, which is to say, "religious.)" Science is always provisional and incomplete, and any answer it gives, leads to further questions. Religion gives complete answers, which the science-minded take as evidence of its falsity.

    Like my child can keep asking "why is that" to any answer I give.

    IS my reply an answer?
  15. Zugzwang
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    18 Jun '15 23:36
    Originally posted by Suzianne to Vivify
    Yes.

    "Why do you reject God?"

    I know from whence I speak, because it was my thread.
    I know you (Suzianne) did not put this question to me, but here goes:
    (I speak only for myself, not for any other atheists.)

    "Why do you reject God?"
    --Suzianne

    I don't. I have neither accepted nor rejected God. And if God exists, I hope God knows it.
    At this time, I simply have no experience or knowledge of God that I believe that I can trust.
    Some well-meaning people may offer to help show or guide me along a path toward God,
    but I don't generally trust that their claimed experience or knowledge makes them more
    likely than I to find God. If someday that changes, then so be it. If not, then so be it.
    My attitude toward God should be described more as indifference than as rejection.

    If God exists, then I hope God will look down upon me--assuming that I am important enough
    to warrant God's attention--and think: "Oh, Duchess64's still ignorant of my cosmic presence.
    Will she learn in time? Still, for all her doubting, she seems to have a good heart."
    If God created me, then God endowed me with a free mind that can ask questions and
    use reason to examine the answers. Being supposedly omniscient, God should know that.
    God should expect me to think and act in ways that seem the most reasonable to me.
    And, at this time, it does not seem more reasonable for me to believe in God than not.
    There are many things that I don't know about the universe, and it's possible that God's
    one of them. But a mere possibility is not yet probability, let alone certainty.

    I have known some believers in God whom I admired in many ways and even loved.
    Some of them said they loved me too and they would have loved to have me join them.
    But I had to keep faith with my own conscience, and I could not pretend to believe in God
    when I did not. Being loved was not enough for me to close my eyes and make believe.

    Now if God exists and is too disappointed by me and intends to condemn me to Hell, then
    I shall accept my sentence of eternal punishment without appealing for special mercy.
    My lack of belief in God has not been motivated by any inclination toward an easier fate.
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