Originally posted by ahosyneyI was talking to another Muslim on another thread about seperation of church and state. I stated, as you rightly point out, that in the world of Christiandom there were once theocracies. These theocracies, in turn, led to such travesties as the Crusades and inquisitions and such. You see, politics is a dirty business and when you mix this dirty business in with the affiars of God, it still is a dirty business only you are doing it in the name of God who is holy. The response from my Muslim friend was that to be a Muslim, you are one 24/7 and that it comes first and formost in every aspect of your life including politics. Thus the seperation of church and state cannot be a reality if one is a true Muslim.
I don't understand you actually.
What is the relation between democracy and what we are talking about.
If you are talking about democracy Christianity is far from that. The history of Christianity is a far from democracy and freedom. How many people died by the name of the Church in the history of Christinity and GOD.
It will be very unfair to m ...[text shortened]... am prevent you from practicing it. If you know let me know. If not go find it and let me know.
I do realize that not all Muslims may feel this way. However, the fact remains that in the world of Islam today, there are theocracies. Not only that, many of them wish to spread Islamic theocracies all around the world. They, in effect, are turning the clock back to the dark ages that led to such travesties as the inquisitions and Crusades and such. To this day Christians are even referred to as Crusaders in the Muslim world even though it happened thousands of years ago.
It just struck me that as America attempts to spread democracy in the Middle East that in effect they have declared war on the Muslim faith itself in the minds of many Islamic fundamentalists. If being Muslim means that Islam encompasses all aspects of life, including the affairs of state, then democracies are nothing short of heretical to their faith. In reality, the goal should be for ALL governments around the world to one day be an Islamic theocracy. Unfortunatly, however, the evils of these Islamic theocracies can be seen today in such fundamentalist countries as Iran as they persecute people of other ideologies other than their own. It hearkens back to the days of the inquisitions and the Crusades as their leader states that the Zionists must be thrown into the sea.
In the minds of Christians today, we recognize that the kingdom of God that Christ speaks of is not of this world and, as a result, it is not in our interest to establish an earthly kingdom via theocracies. All will be well with the world once Christ returns and sets up a wordly kingdom himself. Until then I think it behooves us to concentrate on protecting the rights and freedoms that God gave every man. If God gives us the right to accept or reject him or serve him as he thinks he ought then who is man to do otherwise? This is contrary to the view that man must set up a Godly kingdom to bring peace to the world as I see many other Muslims give lip service to.
Originally posted by ahosyneyahosyney,
Yes a woman in Islam can get divorce.
There is regulation to control that. She don't need to Claim that her husband is sheating on her to get divorce.
But the Austaz as you said didn't refuse her requist because she is a women want divorce. But because she is a woman that claims that someone is having sex illegaly. There is a big different.
I think that you must conceede that the rights of a woman and a man are vastly different in, not only Islamic states, but all around the world. It is indeed a "man's world". For example, I heard that it is legal to beat your wife in Brazil assuming the weapon meets certain criteria. It is only in the modern Western nations that women recieve such rights as voting, driving cars, legal equality and such. I do not know what the Quran says about such things, but this is the reality that I see in the modern world of today.
Having said all that, it is still true that women still do not seem to be considered complete equals even in the Western nations. An example is income. Women on average make much less than their male counterparts. I am not attempting to make moral judgements about how things are in the world, rather, I am merely pointing out the facts about the ways things are.
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Originally posted by ahosyneyHistorian Flavius Josephus, Historian Tacitus, Historian Pliny the younger, Historian Suetotonius, Historian Phlegon, Historian Lucian of Samosata, Emperor Hadrian, all wrote about Jesus in historical books.
That is a good point, Juses only exist in the Bible. No historical book say anything about him, give me names.
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Unlike other holy books, the Bible alone has been supernaturally confirmed to be the word of God. For only the Scriptures were written by prophets who were supernaturally confirmed by signs and wonders. Jesus did many miracles, Mohammed did none. The Bible was written over thousands of years by many different authors from all over the world, but still had the same comprehensive message in it. Mohammed was the only auther of the Quar'an.
No other book in the world has authors who were confirmed in miraculous manners. Of all the religious leaders, neither Confucius nor Buddha nor Muhammed nor Joseph Smith was confirmed by miracles verified by contemporary and credible witnesses. The Bible alone proves to be the Word of God written by prophets and apostles of God who were confirmed by special miraculous acts of God.
The Old Testament has nearly 200 predictions about the coming of Christ that were made hundreds of years in advance. Just a small sampling shows that they predicted with complete accuracy that the Messiah would be born
-of a woman (Genesis 3:15)
-of the line of Abraham (Gen 12:1-3; 22:18)
-through the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10)
-of the son of David (2 Sam 7: 12-13) etc.
-in the city of Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
-and suffer for our sins (Isaiah 53) at about 33 AD (Daniel 9:24-26)
-and rise from the dead (Psalm 16:11) etc.
Even Bible critics all admit these prophecies were given 200 -700 years before the time of Christ, which eliminates any guessing or reading the trends of the times. Further, these prophecies are both detailed and specific. They give the very ancestery, place, and times of Chrsit's coming. No other religious book offers anything that can compare with these supernatural predictions.
On the other hand the Quar'an lacks any real evidence that it is the Word of God. Consider a few crucial points. First, Muhammad himself first believed that the message he got from the angel chocking him was a demon. Muslim biographer M.H. Haykal wrote vividly of Muhammad's plaguing fear that he was demon-possessed. (M.H. Haykal, The Life of Muhammad)
Second, the Quar'an contradicts the Bible on essential teachings. As I have evidence to believe that the Bible is the Word of God, both the Bible and the Quar'an cannot be true at the same time, as condratictory truth claims cannot both be true at the same time.
Third, although Muhammad recognised that the prophets before him were confirmed by miracles of nature, he himself refused to perform any miracles to confirm his claims to be a prophet (Sura 3:181-84).
Fourth, unlike the Bible, the Quar’an has no specific, multiple, and longterm predictions that came to pass without fail. The best supported example of a predictive prophecy is about the Romans avenging a defeat (Sura 30:2-4), but this is vague, indefinite, and humanly predictable.
Originally posted by dj2beckerWill you not at least concede that a Muslim may read parts of the Bible and have many of the same reactions you have to the Koran?
Unlike other holy books, the Bible alone has been supernaturally confirmed to be the word of God. For only the Scriptures were written by prophets who were supernaturally confirmed by signs and wonders. Jesus did many miracles, Mohammed did none. The Bible was written over thousands of years by many different authors from all over the world, but still had ...[text shortened]... s avenging a defeat (Sura 30:2-4), but this is vague, indefinite, and humanly predictable.
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Originally posted by dj2beckerMy friend many of what you said is aganist you not with you. Being written by many authors make it the words of GOD. If there are many authers how can you be so sure that it is the word of GOD.
Unlike other holy books, the Bible alone has been supernaturally confirmed to be the word of God. For only the Scriptures were written by prophets who were supernaturally confirmed by signs and wonders. Jesus did many miracles, Mohammed did none. The Bible was written over thousands of years by many different authors from all over the world, but still had s avenging a defeat (Sura 30:2-4), but this is vague, indefinite, and humanly predictable.
Do you want to tell me that the Song of Solomon Could be a word of GOD. What GOD wanted to tell us from this song.
Being written by many unknown authers is a big evidence that it is not the word of GOD.
I wish to hear an answer from you
Originally posted by kirksey957In Quran there is no contradiction. If you read the Quran from the begining to the end you will find nothing that doenot respect your mind.
Will you not at least concede that a Muslim may read parts of the Bible and have many of the same reactions you have to the Koran?
The most important thing that the Quran is the same for the last 1400 years, no single modification is made to it. This itself a miricle of Quran. GOD say in the Quran "We give this book and we are keeping it". So for the last 1400 year the Quran remains the same without modification. Every word said from Prophet Mohammed is also Guranteed to be truly said from him with a system does not exist in any other reliogon.
If you compare that to the bible, first you have to tell me which bible is the one you are talking about, because as far as I know there are many versions on it differes in the number of chapters and the contents.
And during the same period of time the Bible is modified different time. These modification let me ask why these modification are made. Who give the right for any human to change the word of GOD if it is realy the word of GOD.
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou left out the most compellling prophesy about Christ which is Daniel 9:24-27. It is nothing less than a precise calendar for the coming of the Messiah. Reading the verse it is somewhat hard to interpret the time line being conveyed. However, what is most compelling are the rabbi's who calculated Daniels time line and wrote some 500 years after the Messiah had come that the Messiah should have when Christ actually did come. Since they rejected Jesus as Messiah, they reasoned that the Messiah delayed his coming as a result of the sinfulness of Israel. This can all be read in the Talmud and is a historical fact. If any one should be able to interpret the time line accurately it should have been the rabbis and they had no reason or interest in calculating the calendar in Daniel to the time of Christ. This can be read about in greater detail at this web site. Enjoy!
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The Old Testament has nearly 200 predictions about the coming of Christ that were made hundreds of years in advance. Just a small sampling shows that they predicted with complete accuracy that the Messiah would be born
-of a woman (Genesis 3:15)
-of the line of Abraham (Gen 12:1-3; 22:18)
-through the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10)
-of the son of David ( ...[text shortened]... for our sins (Isaiah 53) at about 33 AD (Daniel 9:24-26)
-and rise from the dead (Psalm 16:11) etc.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_924-27.htm
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Originally posted by snowinscotlandBoth Sheia and Suna Belive in the Same Quran. The sources of this is political in Bases but turned to be in the Majors some how. But there is no interpretation. Suna are the majority and all Suna belive the same thing.
I'm confused. If there is no contradiction in the Quran, why are there different interpretations such as Shia and Sunni etc?
Originally posted by ahosyneyI have a copy of the Koran and I will read some of it. I've heard and maybe you can clarify this for me that the Koran teaches that non-Muslims are either to be converted, taxed or killed. Is this part of its teachings.
I'm sorry if you think that I said something that you don't like. But I hope to know what is it?
In case you have not kept up with my 5 years in these forums, I will tell you I am an equal opportunity questioner. When I ask questions, I am not angry. I am simply asking for clarification, pointing out inconsistencies and on occasions having some good-hearted fun.
Christians like to tell jokes that often include a priest or a rabbi at a bar or something like that. Do you all have anything like that where an Iman gets poked fun of ?
Originally posted by ahosyneyI have a question for you. Are you a former Christian that has converted to Islam? There is another guy on this site, who will remain nameless, that has a similar style of writing, spelling, and passion as you do, only your name and religion is different. Do you live in California?
My friend many of what you said is aganist you not with you. Being written by many authors make it the words of GOD. If there are many authers how can you be so sure that it is the word of GOD.
Do you want to tell me that the Song of Solomon Could be a word of GOD. What GOD wanted to tell us from this song.
Being written by many unknown authers is a big evidence that it is not the word of GOD.
I wish to hear an answer from you
Originally posted by kirksey957First of all, I'm not angry and I'm here to know the truth from who know it, or give the truth to those who don't. I'm here to give a message and I want every one to heat it.
I have a copy of the Koran and I will read some of it. I've heard and maybe you can clarify this for me that the Koran teaches that non-Muslims are either to be converted, taxed or killed. Is this part of its teachings.
In case you have not kept up with my 5 years in these forums, I will tell you I am an equal opportunity questioner. When I ask qu ...[text shortened]... r or something like that. Do you all have anything like that where an Iman gets poked fun of ?
Secondly you didn't answer my question, what did I say wrong.
Thirdly for your question I answered your question before and I will answer it again:
Quran say that no force in religion (Sura Bakara (2) :verse 256. Which mean that we can't force any one to be muslim. And this never happened.
Quran say (Sura Nahl(16): verse 126) Call to your GOD way with wisdom and Good preachment.
Muslims can't force any one to be a Muslim.
Muslims are asked to tell their message to every one. If you refuse it I can't force you to be a Muslim. Christians and Jewish lived in peace in Muslim countries for centuries.
Mulims only fight to defent themsleves. If infdals fights us Muslims are asked to defend themselves. That the Jihad. All verses in Quran are talking about that.
You say you have the Quran. What do you want to ask about?
But let me ask a question: Every one here since I started this post only talk about fight and how muslims treat others. You said you read the Quran. Didn't you find any thing else. If this the only thing you don't like Islam for then the rest is perfect. If we talk about the fight the Bible is full of the same call to fight infidals.