Do you know Islam?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
That must be a selective restriction on reading you're citing. How could all those famous translations into Arabic have been done if Muslims were not allowed to read books?

I'm talking about the ban running into the 19th century on the common man reading anything but the Koran.

That's not got much to do with the scholarship of the Moslem world, which I do not question, you understand.

But... say in the last 8 or 9 centuries, that all rather went to pot, would you not concede?

Originally posted by sjeg
I'm talking about the ban running into the 19th century on the common man reading anything but the Koran.

That's not got much to do with the scholarship of the Moslem world, which I do not question, you understand.

But... say in the last 8 or 9 centuries, that all rather went to pot, would you not concede?

I don't know anything about this ban. Educate me.

Again, I don't know how to respond to your "gone to pot" statement. Certainly the Renaissance saw Europe start taking the lead in world economics and politics. What does that have to do with any religion? Isn't that what we are discussing?

Originally posted by sjeg
Do you dispute the charges against Mohammed? .

What are they? The usual strawman is paedophilia. What else?

Originally posted by Starrman
ahosyney, I have a question; you say that muslims want others to be muslims too, but what do you suggest will happen to them if they do not want to be muslim?

Hi

You are free to think and belive what ever you want,

There is verse in Quran Say:

"There is no force in religon" ,

This means muslim cannot and will not force any one to be Muslim

It never happned and will not happen

Muslims are asked to tell the Message to others

They are asked to do that with a good maner:

Another verse say:

"Call for your GOD way with wisdom and good practive"

That is what GOD told us to do and it exists in Quran but no one read that.

But if you refuse to be a muslim you will be left alone..

If you want to live in Islamic country you have to bay some small amount of money.

If you are in another country we have nothing to do with you.

Muslim fights only if he was attacked

That is the only case he is allowed to fight....

And I think every one will do the same

US did the same

Quran Verse say:

"If they fight you, then fight"

I hope I answered you question

may be it is different from what you heared but that is the truth

Originally posted by whodey
You are taking this out of context. Jesus was giving them a parable about the ten pounds. This quote was from the man who had servants and who had given those servants money to look after. The gist of the story was that the man who hid the money in fear was rebuked while the others who increased their portion were praised. It is comparable to those gifts ...[text shortened]... t with on judgement day. This has nothing to do with Christ or other Christians slaying people.

Isn't that a call of violance aganist the enemies of GOD.

I was answering about there no call of violance by Jesus.

Another thing do you belive in Bible or not.

Your Holy book is full of such stuf in many places GOD ask the belivers to kill the enemies of GOD..

Claiming that only Islam who do that without even reading Islam or Quran is what I'm talking about here

Originally posted by whodey
I thought Islam came from the word submission?

I think you got an answer for that question....

And if you claim that this submission is called by violance, that is not true.

Islam ask muslim to call for the GOD way with wisdom and good practive...

Originally posted by whodey
It is then ironic that this submission is called for via violence, no?

That is what the wester media want you to understand about Islam

If you read Quran and the Islamic history you will find that it is far from truth,

Originally posted by whodey
What concerns me, however, is that those who are the most violent tend to dominate those who are not. They say that Mohammad allows for violence in retaliation for oppression. The parodox, however, is that as they become violent to overcome percieved oppression, they themselves tend to become the very oppressive force that they are attempting to irradicate. ...[text shortened]... ose that you follow or merely look upon their teachings as suggestions rather than commandments.

I have a question for you.

Where do you get your information about Islam?

a) Media
b) Read Quran and Islam
c) Deal with Muslims or talk with them
d) Others

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
What are they? The usual strawman is paedophilia. What else?

That's one charge- we discussed it, and it's there, plain to see.

Murder is another. The list goes on- Commandments didn't mean much to Mo', so how can his interpreted word of God mean anything at all?

And would oyu please answer my question, if I might be so bold- what's your interest in Islam?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Isn't that a call of violance aganist the enemies of GOD.

I was answering about there no call of violance by Jesus.

Another thing do you belive in Bible or not.

Your Holy book is full of such stuf in many places GOD ask the belivers to kill the enemies of GOD..

Claiming that only Islam who do that without even reading Islam or Quran is what I'm talking about here

"Vengence is mine, I will repay", says the Lord. The parable was talking about how God would judge those at the great white throne and NOT what believers should be doing to their fellow man. Vengence is not meant for us to carry out, rather, vengence is for
God alone. There is no vigilanty justice in the kingdom of God today. It is reserved for him alone. Neither does he need us to carry out such vengence as Jesus indicated to Peter when he said, "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." He rebuked his disciple Peter for drawing a sword in his own defense. I dare say Mohammad would have sliced them to bits, especially if he thought he was being oppressed by evil men just as Christ was being oppressed by evil men. In fact, he turned around and healed the soldiers ear that Peter had lopped off. Go figure?

Christ ushered in a period of grace as indicated by the woman caught in adultery. He told them, "He that is without sin, cast the first stone." Before the time of Christ justice was carried out by stoning such people under Mosaic law, but after the time of Christ such judgement is on hold in the hopes that through him we may seek repentance and turn from such sin verses dying for such sin. Only through Christ can we break the chains of such sin. This is the good news of the gospel! Perhaps you would like to return to the Old covenant type Mosaic law, but I prefer the era of grace ushered in by Christ. I think it obvious that grace is superiour to the old Mosaic/Quranic law of an eye for an eye and instant justice. If they repent, perhaps they will not have to suffer for their wrong doings? Would you like to suffer for your wrong doings? I certainly do not.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I have a question for you.

Where do you get your information about Islam?

a) Media
b) Read Quran and Islam
c) Deal with Muslims or talk with them
d) Others

All of the above except reading the Quran. In fact, I have a friend from Africa who is a Muslim. He is one of the nicest men I have ever met in fact. He told me of how the Islamic fundamentalists oppressed less radical Muslims such as his father and himself. In fact, he said they were viewed as infidels despite being Muslim themselves. It struck me odd that he responded to such oppression by turning the other cheek. He seemed more Christ-like than Muslim. Then again, no wonder they hated him! He probably reminded them more of Christ than Mohammad..

Originally posted by ahosyney
I think you got an answer for that question....

And if you claim that this submission is called by violance, that is not true.

Islam ask muslim to call for the GOD way with wisdom and good practive...

Let me ask you a question. Did Mohammad convert with the sword? Did Mohammad kill in the name of God? If I have been informed correctly, Mohammad taught that it is justifiable to kill an infidel if being oppressed. Am I right or wrong?

Originally posted by whodey
Let me ask you a question. Did Mohammad convert with the sword? Did Mohammad kill in the name of God? If I have been informed correctly, Mohammad taught that it is justifiable to kill an infidel if being oppressed. Am I right or wrong?

I answered that before, and I say it again, but before that I have to clarify something.

When muslim talks about Quran or orders of Quran he belif that this is the words of GOD, which mean that Muhammed PBUH is just a messanger who give us a message from GOD. We accepted the message and belive in it so we do what GOD told us not Muhammed PBUH.

Then I come to answer you questions:

1) Islam is not different from any message before, it is not different from the true Christianity and Judism, the messages of Mousses and Juses, that there is only one GOD and he is the only one who deserve worship. Islam tell us the islam was always the religon but people modified it or diviated away from it.

2) Because Islam is the message of GOD we are asked to call every on on earch the message of GOD. So after we deliver the message there will be three types of people:

a) Some people will accept the message and will be our brother. Those has no problem of course. They are muslims they are on the right way.

b) Some people will not accept the message. But they will not prevent us from delivering the message. And also those type of people we has no problem with. We cann't force them. There is a direct order from GOD written in the Quran that we don't force any one to Islam.

c) The third type of people that don't accept our message and also try to fight us to prevent us from delivering the message. In this case and only in this case we are asked to fight to deliver the message of GOD. This is not to force them to be muslims, but because they don't want the message of GOD to be delivered.

Now Prophet Muhammed did follow the same pattern in every part of his life. He stayed in Meca for 10 years calling people and telling them the message of GOD. Some of them accepted it and joined him. Then he moved to Madena with the few people who belived and there many others joined him. That all without a fight. Then infidel start attaching Madena to prevent the message from spreading. So the few muslims start to defend themselves.

Prophet Muhammed never initiated a war. All the wars were selfdefence.

I don't know if this answer your question.

But even if my answer is not perfect or complere, there is another important point. If you got to know that Islam is the true message of GOD and if you didn't follow its rules will you accept it or not.

I'm not perfect but I'm trying to deliver the message as I was asked.

Originally posted by whodey
All of the above except reading the Quran. In fact, I have a friend from Africa who is a Muslim. He is one of the nicest men I have ever met in fact. He told me of how the Islamic fundamentalists oppressed less radical Muslims such as his father and himself. In fact, he said they were viewed as infidels despite being Muslim themselves. It struck me odd t ...[text shortened]... Then again, no wonder they hated him! He probably reminded them more of Christ than Mohammad..

Ok

How do you know something without reading it. I think you should give yourself a time to read and then you will have the right view.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
He claimed that you should fight back if attacked. Much like St. Augustine with his "just war". I don't think too many Christian states have followed the turn-the-other-cheek doctrine, do you? Some pacifists said Hitler should not have been resisted--do you agree?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a pacifist and Christ was not a pacifist. Christ's struggle, however, was spiritual and therefore not against a particular government or people. This is why he did not raise arms against the Roman Empire or raise an army of any kind other than an army of disciples to spread his word. You see, his kingdom crosses all borders, all governments, all nationalities, and all races. What St. Augistine said I do not think Christ would say to be honest. He is intitled to his opinions, however. I would like to hear why he thinks war is justsifiable using the words of Christ. For years Christians were systematiclly persecuted and thrown to the lions in martyrdom by the Roman Empire and did not raise a finger to fight them on a physical level. Instead they fought on their knees. Do you not think it strange that Rome was conquered by the church when it was all said and done in light of the fact that Christ's followers never raised an army to do so? BTW don't you think their is a striking difference between the Christian martyres of Rome and the "so-called" Muslim martyres of today?

Having said that, I do think it possible that God raises up armies to crush such evil men as Hitler unbeknownst to those who carry out such wars. I would argue wholeheartidly, however, that God tends to such things just as he tends to feeding the animals of the forest and watering the trees thereof. It is not an endevour man should take upon himself. It should be left to God. Otherwise you wind up with the Crusades. Till this day Christians are refered to "Crusaders" in the Muslim world despite it having occured thousands of years ago. This is how devestating and corrosive sin is. Travisties such as this tend to occur when men take it upon themselves to start wars in the name of God.

One thing I am certain of, however, and that is God takes no pleasure in war whether he sees it as a necessary action or otherwise.