Does Death Mean Non-existence?

@sonship said

Why don't you start with acknowledging God. If you don't acknowledge your Creator how are we suppose to trust you that you have God's glorification in mind in ANY regard?

Or 'you' could start by rejecting God and the notion of a creator, so we could then have a perfectly reasonable and objective conversation about the universe and how we got here?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Or 'you' could start by rejecting God and the notion of a creator, so we could then have a perfectly reasonable and objective conversation about the universe and how we got here?

That "reasonableness" I find as very twisted thinking.
I don't have enough of faith to believe that it popped into existence because of nothing and from nothing.

And the idea of it always existing runs contrary to the prevailing scientific opinion, I believe.
That could shift.

I think that what was told us by revelation by the Bible remains true regardless of how many centuries of technological advancement occur, namely that the existence of the universe manifests God's eternal power and divine characteristics.

Quadrupling or more scientific knowledge doesn't seem to me to altar that.
String theory, Quantum mechanics, multiverses, simply appear to push the mystery back another step.

And the exquisite calibration of life permitting constants (ie. fine tuning) indicate intelligent design of some kind.

Would you consider astronomer Fred Hoyle (1915-2001) to be reasonable about the matter?

"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Or 'you' could start by rejecting God and the notion of a creator, so we could then have a perfectly reasonable and objective conversation about the universe and how we got here?

That "reasonableness" I find as very twisted thinking.
I don't have enough of faith to believe that it popped into existence because of nothing ...[text shortened]... chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature." [/quote]

Sigh.

I 'don't' believe anything popped into existence or that something came from nothing. Of course, I have said this many times. You just don't show the courtesy of retaining that information.

Again, I have advocated an eternal universe that has always existed in one form or another. (No beginning, no popping into existence).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You just don't show the courtesy of retaining that information.

My reply was to you, yet general, including others who may not have all views memorized or seen.

Plenty of things I write go through one ear and out the other with some of you.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You just don't show the courtesy of retaining that information.

My reply was to you, yet general, including others who may not have all views memorized or seen.

Plenty of things I write go through one ear and out the other with some of you.

Nonsense has a tendency of doing that.

Ghost,

so we could then have a perfectly reasonable and objective conversation about the universe and how we got here?

So then by perfectly reasonable I assume you mean for to consider an infinite regress of physical causes and effects traversing over infinity in the past.

And by "objective" I will have to grant you you are not imagining such an beginning-less physical universe in order to rid the notion of a Creator God (which may have undesirable connotations for other reasons).

Both notions are not easy for me to go along with. Sigh.

1.) I have to imagine that infinity has been traversed to arrive at TODAY. But it would take infinity to go from moment to moment. "Today" suggests to me that a finite rather than infinite distance of time has passed.

2.) Separating the our existence and being totally from that matter of morality, I find is a preference we humans would like to be able to do. I am resigned pretty much to realize that the two are related.

I am usually suspicious to speak reasonably about the existence of things totally apart from the problem of Good and Evil are trying to erase a relationship that just won't go away.

And as soon as you speak of morality, ultimate transcendent morality comes into play, IMO.

@sonship said
Ghost,

so we could then have a perfectly reasonable and objective conversation about the universe and how we got here?

So then by perfectly reasonable I assume you mean for to consider an infinite regress of physical causes and effects traversing over infinity in the past.

And by "objective" I will have to grant you you are not imagining such ...[text shortened]... y.

And as soon as you speak of morality, ultimate transcendent morality comes into play, IMO.

Forget 'today.' Time itself is the construct of finite minds. - Think of the universe as you currently (incorrectly) think of God. It transcends our finite understanding.

(Morality too is a human construct, useful for social cohesion). And God didn't 'go away' with me. He never arrived.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Nonsense has a tendency of doing that.

You lectured nicely me on Reincarnation. But you said that is not what you believe.
Was that because it didn't make enough sense to you?

You seemed to explain something like this -

Life 1 ---> Life 2 ---> Life 3 ---> Life 4 ----> etc etc. etc. Life N are inheritors of their predecessor's karma.

But the bad karma of Life 1 was not produced by Life 2. And so on down the line.
I think the same could be said of the good karma.

Well now I know what you don't believe yourself. But I still want to contemplate the validity of it according to wisemen of Hinduism.

And I want to add to it what you are committed to owning - a belief in an eternally physical universe in some form or other.

I assume non-living things don't produce karma. Or do they.
I assume some authority determined what is good and bad karma.
I don't know who or what established that yet.

It intrigues me that non-living things traversing infinity somehow became life.
It intrigues me that physical things traversing infinity in one form or another developed thinking !!

It intrigues me that life has a history with a beginning but the physical universe has none.
So we have a past eternal material universe with the phenomenon of life having a history with a starting point.

But if this Unity oversoul counts as life (not familiar with the Hinduism terms) then we have an infinite past material universe within which life has a beginning in individual lives but progresses to One eternal in the future conglomerate having freedom from tiresome recycle of reincarnation because of bad karma.

I don't despise the beliefs of millions of people. I think millions of people believe something because it may contain parts that are true. There is truth to the assumption that things as we see them are not the final reality. In a sense what our five senses perceive are not the Real Real things. To that degree I think some eastern religions have their hands on some truth. Truth attacks hearts to it.

I am going to stop this post here.
If you want to address anything tell me WHO ... WHO gets rewarded with final release from the tiresome cycle of Reincarnation say, for Life 1 -->2 ---> 3 --->4 ---> 2,990,479 (if that is how many re-cycles occurred) ?

Does Life 2,990,479 become happy having discharged all karma and released into the Ultimate Cosmic Unity (of sorts)?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Nonsense has a tendency of doing that.

You lectured nicely me on Reincarnation. But you said that is not what you believe.
Was that because it didn't make enough sense to you?

You seemed to explain something like this -

Life 1 ---> Life 2 ---> Life 3 ---> Life 4 ----> etc etc. etc. Life N are inheritors of their predeces ...[text shortened]... b] become happy having discharged all karma and released into the Ultimate Cosmic Unity (of sorts)?

2 points before we continue:

1: Please do not conflate an eternal universe with reincarnation or Hinduism. (As far as I am aware it is Jainism that believes in an eternal universe).
2. Please indicate you accept that Hindus themselves believe the same soul is reincarnated. Unless you accept this as a starting point I have no interest in discussing it with you.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

2. Please indicate you accept that Hindus themselves believe the same soul is reincarnated. Unless you accept this as a starting point I have no interest in discussing it with you.

Why would I not accept that Hindus of course believe in reincarnation? But if you're looking for an excuse not to discuss it, don't worry. Just drop discussing it.

The lesson in "other faiths exist" is unnecessary to me anyway.

@sonship said
Why would I not accept that Hindus of course believe in reincarnation? But if you're looking for an excuse not to discuss it, don't worry. Just drop discussing it.

The lesson in "other faiths exist" is unnecessary to me anyway.

Do you "fear" Dasa's threat that you might be reincarnated as a cockroach if you persist with your Christian atheism?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

2. Please indicate you accept that Hindus themselves believe the same soul is reincarnated. Unless you accept this as a starting point I have no interest in discussing it with you.

Why would I not accept that Hindus of course believe in reincarnation? But if you're looking for an excuse not to discuss it, don't worry. Just drop discussing it.

The lesson in "other faiths exist" is unnecessary to me anyway.

That is not the same thing sonship. I did not ask you to indicate that Hindus believe in reincarnation. (Obviously they do). I asked you to confirm you understand they believe 'THE SAME SOUL' is reincarnated.

Can you do that?!

@FMF

Explain yourself.

@sonship said
@FMF

Explain yourself.

Dasa believed that Christians were atheists. Never mind that.

Do you "fear" Dasa's threat that you might be reincarnated as a cockroach if you persist with your Christian beliefs?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

That is not the same thing sonship. I did not ask you to indicate that Hindus believe in reincarnation. (Obviously they do). I asked you to confirm you understand they believe 'THE SAME SOUL' is reincarnated.

Can you do that?!

RE-incarnation of the soul is taught in Hinduism.
Incarnated again and again and again, the same soul.