Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard membersonship
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    OP -
    Someone demonstrate their case that in the Bible death means total non-existence.

    Recently, references were made to Death and Hades being discarded into the lake of fire - the second death (Rev. 20:14) . And reference was made to Jesus having the keys of Death and of Hell (Hades) (Rev. 1:18).

    If these verses mean to you death in the Bible means total non-existence, explain to me why this is so.

    (Suzianne?)
  2. Standard membersonship
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    My contributions to this thread will probably sound forced to include SOMETHING that will exalt the Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry. But I have to have fun too.

    To some this will sound like unasked for extraneous comments.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jan '19 20:241 edit
    Does Death Mean Non-existence?

    In the first book of the Bible Genesis nothing I can think of speaks of existence beyond physical death. However in earliest written book Job there is Job's expectation that he would see God at the end of the world even if he be unclothed in his flesh.

    "But I know that my Redeemer lives;

    And at the last He will stand upon the earth;
    And after this body of mine is destroyed,
    Outside my flesh I will look on God." (Job 19:26)


    The removal of his body and flesh he does not expect will mean his non-existence.
    We know at this point that this is his expectation. He says he knows.
    But we may not know if Job is correct, yet.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    25 Jan '19 20:261 edit
    @sonship said
    OP -
    Someone demonstrate their case that in the Bible death means total non-existence.

    Recently, references were made to Death and Hades being discarded into the lake of fire - the second death (Rev. 20:14) . And reference was made to Jesus having the keys of Death and of Hell (Hades) (Rev. 1:18).

    If these verses mean to you death in the Bible means total non-existence, explain to me why this is so.

    (Suzianne?)
    "Someone demonstrate their case that in the Bible death means total non-existence."

    "(Suzianne?) "


    What are you looking at me for? I never said that.

    What I did say is exactly what the Bible says, that being sent to the Lake of Fire is the "second death". People sent to the Lake of Fire as punishment for their unrepented sin are destroyed. Certainly not "kept alive and tortured eternally".
  5. Standard membersonship
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    @Suzianne

    What are you looking at me for? I never said that.

    What I did say is exactly what the Bible says, that being sent to the Lake of Fire is the "second death". People sent to the Lake of Fire as punishment for their unrepented sin are destroyed. Certainly not "kept alive and tortured eternally".


    Thankyou.

    Perhaps we can approach this in stages. Should I assume that you recognize that Job did not expect that physical destruction of his body mean his non-existence ?

    If your view is yes, then I will assume that for those physically dead to be resurrected and then thrown into the second death is for them to be non-existence - ie. "destroyed".

    One thousand years prior to Satan being sent to the lake of fire, the false prophet and the antichrist - the beast were sent there. Then the Bible says that when they are joined by Satan THEY - plural will be tormented forever.

    "They" would indicate to me that the two previous mentioned enemies of God were STILL THERE and not non-existent when THEY are joined by their leader Satan.

    And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were;

    and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)
  6. Standard membersonship
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    25 Jan '19 20:50
    Suzianne,

    One thousand years earlier the devil was preceded into that place by the beast and the false prophet:

    And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone." (Rev. 20:20)


    Then one thousand years pass.

    And he laid hold of the dragon the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. (20:1)

    And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison." (v.7)


    How can Revelation 20:10 speak of "THEY" being in the lake of fire if the beast and the false prophet were rendered NON_EXISTING by going to that place previously?

    It seems to me that to be destroyed there is the loss of well being rather than the loss of being.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    Job in the earliest writing of the Bible expected that he would exist to see his Redeemer at the end of the world. And this even though his body and flesh not be upon him.

    We see also the disobedient King Saul being met by the immaterial soul and spirit of the deceased prophet Samuel in First Samuel 28.

    Saul had put out all the witches and necromancers out of Israel. God had forbidden His theocratic nation to practice the occult of any kind. And to attempt to contact the dead was forbidden by Yahweh.

    Leviticus 20:27 - "If there is a man or woman who is a medium or a spiritist, they shall surely be put to death. They shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them."

    Leviticus 19:31 - "Do not turn to mediums or to spiritists; do not seek after them to be defiled by them; I am Jehovah your God."

    Leviticus 20:6 - "And the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists to prostitute himself after them, I will even set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people."


    One witch was recorded remaining in the land of Israel under secrecy. The obsessed and apostate King Saul contacted this Witch of Endor to conjure up the soul of the prophet Samuel because God had stopped speaking to Saul. And the immaterial part of Samuel actually came up from the realm of Sheol (Hades).
  8. Standard membersonship
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    Now I do not believe that neocromancers and mediums actually could contact or bring up dead persons at all.
    They interacted with deceiving spirits and demonic forces intend on leading humanity astray.

    But in this case it was God who by His miraculous power and authority allowed the dead prophet's spirit to speak to Saul. Samuel came up accompanied by the angels of God.

    Some controversy exists among Bible students as to whether or not it was REALLY the deceased prophet Samuel. I believe it was because the Scripture says five times emphatically, that the person who came up WAS Samuel.

    "Then said Saul to his servants, Seek for me a woman who is a medium that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, There is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.

    Then Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes. And he and two men with him went, and they came to the woman by night. And he said, Consult a departed spirit for me, and bring up the one whom I tell you.

    And the woman said to him, Look, you know what Saul has done, that he has cut off the mediums and the soothsayers from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life to make me die?" (1 Sam. 28:7-9)


    The disguised Saul promises that no one will know and on they go to bring up Samuel's departed soul and spirit from the realm of death.

    "And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. But what do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I see some divine being coming up out of the earth."
    Elohim is plural so some believe she saw divine beings (plural) coming up - or Samuel accompanied by an angel or angels.

    The Bible says it was Samuel -

    1.) "Now when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice ..." (v.12)
    2.) "Then Saul knew that it was Samuel ... " (v.14)
    3.) "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (v.15)
    4.) "And Samuel said, Why then have you inquired of me? For Jehovah has turned away from and become your adversary. (v.16)
    5.) "Then Saul ... was very afraid because of Samuel's words." (v.20)

    If we believe that it was actually Samuel as the Bible strongly indicates, then the deceased Samuel existed though his body and flesh had turned to dust in his grave.

    Death did not mean the dead prophet's total non-existence.
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    26 Jan '19 05:27
    @sonship said
    OP -
    Someone demonstrate their case that in the Bible death means total non-existence.

    Recently, references were made to Death and Hades being discarded into the lake of fire - the second death (Rev. 20:14) . And reference was made to Jesus having the keys of Death and of Hell (Hades) (Rev. 1:18).

    If these verses mean to you death in the Bible means total non-existence, explain to me why this is so.

    (Suzianne?)
    Something kind of interesting -- there is a position that is sort of beyond either of these.

    I have heard that people can actually be considered to be "dead" and in a state of total non-existence until the Judgment day. And, at that point, their soul is turned into a spirit body.
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    @sonship said
    @Suzianne

    What are you looking at me for? I never said that.

    What I did say is exactly what the Bible says, that being sent to the Lake of Fire is the "second death". People sent to the Lake of Fire as punishment for their unrepented sin are destroyed. Certainly not "kept alive and tortured eternally".


    Thankyou.

    Perhaps we can approach this in sta ...[text shortened]... het were;

    and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) [/b] [/quote]
    You're assuming a lot here.

    OF COURSE I don't think that death means annihilation. You're confusing two ideas.

    One is physical death, the end of this life. Man has a soul which lives on past death. I believe in the resurrection (although my jury is still out on the question of this resurrection being a flesh and blood resurrection, or just a 'waking up' of the sleeping soul) after death, whether to life or to condemnation.

    The other is the "second death", the destruction of the soul sent to the lake of fire. This IS perfect destruction and non-existence (annihilation). For humans, anyways.

    Then you again confuse things by lumping in Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet. These are not humans, and so are not consumed by the lake of fire. Of course these have their just reward of eternal torment in the lake of fire.

    This concept is highlighted in Matthew 10:28:

    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 KJV
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    26 Jan '19 08:56
    @sonship said

    Death did not mean the dead prophet's total non-existence.
    Of course not, physical death does not destroy the soul.

    How else could there be judgement?
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    @philokalia said
    I have heard that people can actually be considered to be "dead" and in a state of total non-existence until the Judgment day. And, at that point, their soul is turned into a spirit body.
    Who did you hear that from? A witness?
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    @wolfgang59 said
    Who did you hear that from? A witness?
    This, with minor modification, is actually mainstream Christian thought on the subject. It's not some weird fringe idea.

    The idea is that, upon death, the soul (this contains everything that person is, the real you, as it were) survives on, perhaps in a sort of "suspended animation" or "sleep". The Bible speaks many times of the dead as "sleeping". This is followed by a resurrection at the time of Judgement. Some say this resurrection is a full-on sort of bodily re-animation, with a new body like our earthly life. Others say this is more like an "awakening" to your "soul body" or spirit body. Then comes the Judgement. Some say that Christians who have been sanctified by their obedience to Jesus can "skip" Judgement and go straight to the Kingdom of God because their sins have been paid by the blood of Jesus. I personally believe that everyone must endure Judgement. Certainly, some pass and some fail. Those who fail go to the lake of fire and are destroyed, in my belief. Mainstream Christianity diverges here from my belief in that these wanting souls are then subject to eternal torture "forever and ever".
  14. Standard membersonship
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    @Suzianne

    The other is the "second death", the destruction of the soul sent to the lake of fire. This IS perfect destruction and non-existence (annihilation). For humans, anyways.

    Then you again confuse things by lumping in Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet. These are not humans, and so are not consumed by the lake of fire. Of course these have their just reward of eternal torment in the lake of fire.


    You see physical death as not meaning the non-existence of the total man. But the second death AS that non-existence of the total man. So "of course not" is your reply to the OP.

    Your view is much dependent upon viewing the beast, the false prophet, and Satan as not human beings.

    While I would agree that the Devil is not a human being the beast and the false prophet are two human beings in Revelation.

    The Antichrist, who is the beast, is called "the man of lawlessness" and "the son of perdition" ( 1 Thess. 4:4)

    "Let no one deceive you in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS is revealed, the SON OF PERDITION.

    Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." (v.4)


    This is a man sitting in the temple of God blaspheming Him. He is an extraordinary man for sure, but a man nonetheless.

    Regardless of all the intricate symbolism in Revelation eventually we should recognize that the beast is a man. He may stand for many things but he is a man and has "the number of a man."
    "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred and sixty-six." (Rev. 13:18)
  15. Standard membersonship
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    26 Jan '19 11:162 edits
    Suzianne,

    Can something ELSE sit in the temple with a mouth of blasphemy proclaiming to be God and having an image of himself that people must worship? And if we say that "the beast" stands for some system of evil men, then that would still mean that men are cast into the lake of fire if "the beast" is cast into it in Rev. 20:10.

    The same goes for "the false prophet". He is a man. If he is a symbol of an aggregate of evil men then an aggregate of evil men are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever and ever in Rev. 20:10.

    The first beast has been struck dead and resuscitated in a Satanic miracle. So unquestionably he is an extraordinary man. But a man he is, And so also is his false prophet given all the authority to deceive also with him.

    And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his sight, and he causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke was healed.

    And he deceives those who dwell on the earth on account of the sings which he was given power to do before the beast, commanding those who dwell on the earth to make an mage to the beast, who had the stroke of the sword and revived.

    And power was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast that the image of the beast might even speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Rev. 13:11,12,14,15)


    Do you still think it is not two men who are cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10 ?
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