Originally posted by eatmybishopAnd surely the inner voice is God talking to you...you are not listening to that voice are you?!
sorry, maybe i'm just naive, but i still cant see why christ died, if it died for our sins, why is there still sin in the world? in fact, when he died, shouldn't sin have died with him?
i would understand it if he died and there was no more sin, i would gladly praise him... but he kinda did it all and we're still in the same spot
sorry... i dont rely on a book for my knowledge on what is right and wrong, i listen to the inner voice
Originally posted by KellyJayThe scripture points out we already have the wrath of God remaining on us right now...
Yes, if you anger God, no amount of time passing will cause God’s
anger to dissipate in any degree. God being an eternal being isn’t
affected by time as we are, no amount of time will cause God to
forget or let pass a wrong that actually caused Him to be angry with
you. The scripture points out we already have the wrath of God
remaining on us right now ...[text shortened]... ets and it will last as long
as God's mercy lasts for those that recieve it, forever.
Kelly
Can you tell me exactly what sins I have committed that merit having God’s wrath “on me” right now—and when I committed them? The standard version is that I was born with God’s wrath on me because of inherited original sin from the first humans.
Now, when I was born, my parents didn’t have wrath for me; they had love.
We have been at this for how many years now, Kelly? And you know (I hope) that I like and respect you. But this just boggle my mind. If one person that I dearly love ends up under God’s eternal wrath, I’m supposed to by happy anyway because I’ll be saved (assuming for argument’s sake that I’m a faithful believer)? Is that all the deeper my love is supposed to go?
Your God may be many things, but one thing he is not: He is not love. He may love some (believers) and hate others (non-believers), but he is not love.
You may object to the word “hate,” but that is an apt word to describe his ultimate judgment on those who do not believe—and believe rightly, for that matter. I cannot claim to love my wife while I am beating her in rage (or allowing someone else to do it); I absolutely cannot claim to be (or to embody) love in that instance. Maybe I embodied love up until that point, but not at or after that point. As one such woman that I knew finally told her husband—who kept saying all along, for years, how he really loved her: “It doesn’t feel like love to me.”
No believer in love can believe in your God except in a state of cognitive dissonance. In the end, God’s “ultimate sacrifice” on the cross is for the benefit of some, those who satisfy the conditions (faith or works or both) set for God to love them. It’s as if you were to say that you will lay down your life for your wife—as long as she believes the right things about you, and the day she does not, to hell with her.
I just don’t understand how you and Freaky and Epiphenehas and others cannot see this. Not one of you guys believes that God actually is love (as John claimed), but weasel it down to something like, “Well God is loving, but God is also just/wrathful/righteous”, whatever. You use other texts to contextualize (and diminish) John’s statement, and refuse to use his to contextualize the rest. You do not look at it through the eyes of love, as John did.
And that’s what continually makes me angry: not that you diminish God (without regard to the fact that your concept of God is not one that I believe in), but that you diminish love. If someone says that one can be loving toward someone while condemning them to eternal torment (or the lake of fire), then I say that person doesn’t know what love is; they are merely claiming the word.
Justify your God’s actions any way you want. Just don’t say that he is love. You can say that people are free to walk away from God’s love (whodey’s argument)—and then we can argue about why death is some bar, as we have in the past—but don’t try to sell a wrathful God as being love. A loving God may fail to save; to a God of love that would be an occasion of grief, not wrath at those whom he failed to save.
______________________________________
I have taken to saying “your God”—by which you probably assume I actually mean God—because it is your concept of God (and that of others), derived from how you read the scriptures. There are Christians, on here, who really do think that God is love, and read the scriptures through the eyes of love. I might argue other things with them, but not that.
I have said this before, and I’ll say it again: In deep, intimate, fully expansive love, there is no “I” and “other”; there is only a single “We.” That is a rare and precious thing, in my human experience. Too precious to sully by calling its opposite by the same name. (And in between there is just the love that is, in Rilke’s words, “two solitudes that border and greet and protect one another”. That’s precious, too.)
To act wrathfully toward anyone is not loving, ever. Justify it on other grounds, if you wish—just don’t say that the one acting wrathfully is love, or, in that instance, loving. Just say that John didn’t really mean it.
Originally posted by vistesdLove,wrath...its all for the best!!!
[b]The scripture points out we already have the wrath of God remaining on us right now...
Can you tell me exactly what sins I have committed that merit having God’s wrath “on me” right now—and when I committed them? The standard version is that I was born with God’s wrath on me because of inherited original sin from the first humans.
Now, when I ...[text shortened]... thfully is love, or, in that instance, loving. Just say that John didn’t really mean it.[/b]
Originally posted by scottishinnzhe gives then we act differently to his teachings, if someone prays for something and they recive, then go on about thier buisness as tho it were by there own hand then we are the arogant ones.
But none of that stuff had to happen with an omnipotent God. It just seems so illogical. The Christian God seems to like playing games like some kind to demented puppet-master. I fail to see why though, since being omniscient he already knows what'll happen.
6 edits
Originally posted by vistesdI cannot tell you your sins there your sins when and where you started
[b]The scripture points out we already have the wrath of God remaining on us right now...
Can you tell me exactly what sins I have committed that merit having God’s wrath “on me” right now—and when I committed them? The standard version is that I was born with God’s wrath on me because of inherited original sin from the first humans.
Now, when I ...[text shortened]... thfully is love, or, in that instance, loving. Just say that John didn’t really mean it.[/b]
them, I don't know. I agree with you that your parents loved you from
the get go, just I believe God loved you from the get go, even before
your get had a go, God loved you. The fact is that God does love
us, and has done what He did to show us God's grace and mercy
should let you know that. We are standing before God now sinners, I
believe in original sin, that being inherited into our human nature, we
see through the glass darkly, we live in a broken nature doing things
we know we should not. The wrath of God is as real as His love, and
the only reason we are not all dealing with God because of our sins
now is that we are running around while God is with holding judgment
out of God’s grace, mercy, love and He is cursed for that by
some being called unjust.
You don’t think I like the idea of anyone, those I love or even those I
dislike ending up under God’s wrath either do you? I do believe it is a
terrible thing to end up in the hands of God while your about to face
His wrath there can no thing ever that is worse in my opinion. I also
don’t think God wants to remain angry with us either, but delights in
mercy which is why He is now showing us grace while we are walking
around sinning left and right and cursing Him while we do it. A price
or a settling of debt needs to be satisfied to just dismiss our sins
without such things even we would decry that. No one likes justice
ignored or set aside for one while another gets punished for the same
thing, the debt and settling of the score must be just and fair for all,
as it is for now for whom so ever will may come to God now, all have
sinned, all can be saved.
Belief isn’t enough for being saved you should know that, the devil
believes and the devil is facing God’s wrath like no other. It is a
relationship with God a bonding of God’s life into ours as we invite
God into our very lives. Jesus on judgment day told some that
claimed to do a great number of things in Jesus’ name to depart,
because He didn’t know them, He did not deny the things they
claimed to have done (Matthew 7:21-23) on judgment day. Do you
think they believed there was a God while doing them? They were still
cast out, because it is and always was a relationship with God in Christ
that matters just a simple head knowledge makes it just another
different thing to believe in like the world doesn’t have enough of
those already. I do not think I’m diminishing love nor do I believe
I’m diminishing God’s love since it is only do to God’s love that has
kept us all out out of Hell, I do think you diminish God’s
righteousness and the need to settle up on all sin making God just
one dimensional, you like the idea of God being love, but ignoring His
righteous nature at the same time.
Kelly
Originally posted by stokerbut that still doesn't make any sense. The entire christian faith makes no sense if God is omniscient.
he gives then we act differently to his teachings, if someone prays for something and they recive, then go on about thier buisness as tho it were by there own hand then we are the arogant ones.
Originally posted by scottishinnzIt makes perfect sense if God did give man the will to act as man
but that still doesn't make any sense. The entire christian faith makes no sense if God is omniscient.
wills, not as a robot but as man wills, in the very image of God. It
would not make sense to judge someone for evil they were going
to do by design that would simply be them doing what they were
suppose to do, not what they where not supposed to do.
Kelly
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, if you anger God, no amount of time passing will cause God’s
anger to dissipate in any degree.
"4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying,
Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?
10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
-Jonah 3
Originally posted by KellyJayBecause a real all-powerful, all-knowing and really nice Super Duper God has no logical reason to be angry. But such a God dreamed up by semi-savages would reflect their emotions even though it makes no sense whatsoever.
Why is that?
Kelly
edit:
I don't believe I dreamed God up but this isn't anything petty!
I believe it is the only thing that makes sense to me too after thinking
about it.
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIt’s not about one view being “nice” and the other not. It’s about contradictoriness. Let’s see if I can break it down a bit—
I cannot tell you your sins there your sins when and where you started
them, I don't know. I agree with you that your parents loved you from
the get go, just I believe God loved you from the get go, even before
your get had a go, God loved you. The fact is that God does [b]love
us, and has done what He did to show us God's grace and mercy
should le ...[text shortened]... u like the idea of God being love, but ignoring His
righteous nature at the same time.
Kelly[/b]
I.
In our household there is no justice. We simply do not live according to that concept. We live according to love. No one, for example, ever says something like: “You owe me, because...”, or “I’ve kept track and it’s your turn to [do some chore or other]”, or “Let’s be fair about this...”. No one collects “green stamps.”
Sure, we divide tasks and chores; it is just not done under the heading of fairness—ever. If one of us has been taking a particular task, and don’t want to anymore, they simply say so. It all works out without the concept of justness/fairness ever entering into the thinking. Other people may operate differently, and that’s fine.
II.
I do not see much in the way of justice in your schema either. Both Gandhi and Hitler, for example, are likely to end up under eternal condemnation because God’s grace is faith-based, not behavior-based. Someone who lives a life as heinous as Hitler, and who later becomes a faithful Christian receives grace, not justice.* Christ’s sacrifice secures mercy for the faithful; the rest receive condemnation.
There are only two outcomes: eternal grace or eternal condemnation. There is no justice involved except, as SwissGambit would say, some kind of “bizarro justice”. (And I haven’t the slightest idea what wrath has to do with administering justice anyway.)
III.
You basically have two choices. You can either read scripture in such a way that love takes precedence over “justice” (whatever is meant by that word), or you can read it in such a way that “justice” takes precedence over love. Trying to muddle the two creates contradiction. Put another way, you can define God’s righteousness as being God’s love, or you can define it as being God’s justice. You cannot do both, since the two do not go together.
If someone I love does something that deserves punishment, and I simply pardon them and do not punish because I love them, I have withheld justice. If someone is pardoned simply because they throw themselves on the mercy of the court, they receive pardon, not justice.
I do not think that you believe you will receive justice from God, but pardon. Justice would involve appropriate recompense for your deeds, good and bad. Again, Christ’s sacrifice secures for you not justice, but grace; and those who fall outside of grace receive not justice, but equal condemnation.
IV.
Now, you can claim that God is sometimes loving and sometimes wrathful, that God is sometimes just and sometimes merciful. You can claim that God gets to choose without being questioned, simply because God is God.
But then what you cannot claim is that God is love. And I notice that nowhere in your post do you make that claim.
* I am not making the silly, “Now he’s a Christian, so he can sin as much as he wants” type of argument here.
EDIT: Perhaps you define love in terms of emotion or attitude, and I don’t deny that those are part of it; but I tend to define love in terms of behavior and experience (especially what I call the We experience, for lack of a better word; recall my "sermon" on that subject). One can claim that they love, but if their behavior is not loving, then that’s what counts.
Originally posted by eatmybishopI believe that you have erred with the 1st assumption, Grasshopper. God is NOT controlled by emotions to ANY degree. Thus, He can be angry, sad, joyous, vengeful, etc. without losing His control. Which is a very good thing for we "sinners in the hand of an angry God."
god getting angry... is this really true..? if so, that implies god feels emotion... if he feels it, he is also - to a certain extent, controlled by it... therefore not even god can rise above feeling...
also, if god created the world, that means he's been with us ever since, he's seen it all... and yet he still gets angry!!!
...and if god gets ang ...[text shortened]... ves by talking of this all powerful everlasting god, yet also suggesting he is prone to moods
Originally posted by KellyJayI concur. God can't be blamed for being omniscient--it is His nature.
It makes perfect sense if God did give man the will to act as man
wills, not as a robot but as man wills, in the very image of God. It
would not make sense to judge someone for evil they were going
to do by design that would simply be them doing what they were
suppose to do, not what they where not supposed to do.
Kelly
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but that still doesn't make any sense. The entire christian faith makes no sense if God is omniscient.
=================================
Here's an interesting point.
Now WHY does the entire Christian faith make no sense if God is omniscient ?
Why is that ?
Originally posted by jaywillKelly + Jay
[b]=================================
but that still doesn't make any sense. The entire christian faith makes no sense if God is omniscient.
=================================
Here's an interesting point.
Now WHY does the entire Christian faith make no sense if God is omniscient ?
Why is that ?[/b]
Because faith is meaningless if we have no free will. And if God is omniscient, we have no free will - we cannot contradict anything he a priori knows we'll do.