Eternal One

Originally posted by @fmf
Yes. There have been others ~ over the years in this community ~ who did not believe in eternal torture. I can't recall their names offhand.

So not most of the other Christians here as your pal Dive has claimed?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So not most of the other Christians here as your pal Dive has claimed?

Ask divegeester. My question was to sonship. If you want to know what divegeester believes, ask him.

Originally posted by @fmf
Ask divegeester. My question was to sonship. If you want to know what divegeester believes, ask him.

I have read what Sonship has said and I believe you are misrepresenting his views.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I have read what Sonship has said and I believe you are misrepresenting his views.

OK. Then we can agree to disagree about both: [1] what sonship's beliefs are, and [2] that I am misrepresenting them. I understand that you disagree.

Originally posted by @fmf
OK. Then we can agree to disagree about both: [1] what sonship's beliefs are, and [2] that I am misrepresenting them. I understand that you disagree.

So that you conveniently don't have to back up your assertions?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So that you conveniently don't have to back up your assertions?

I am not interested in doing so in a discussion with you, no. I am awaiting sonship's answer. It is rooted in many conversations I have had with him. I have no plans to discuss 'eternal torture' with you.

Originally posted by @fmf
I am not interested in doing so in a discussion with you, no. I am awaiting sonship's answer. It is rooted in many conversations I have had with him. I have no plans to discuss 'eternal torture' with you.

Based on your misrepresentation of his beliefs I would not be expecting an answer from him if I were you.

Originally posted by @sonship

I think you elevate us to much. God doing a work doesn't mean because He has a need. Your view in my opinion makes man out to be to much, and you turn God into a god.

I elevate us too much?
Now God became a man - Jesus Christ.


Don't you think that says something about humanity's worth to God ?

The passage I referred to says G ...[text shortened]... I am happy to discuss this with you regardless. We have the word of God to verify these things.

Yes, God elevated us, but not because He needs us, He loves us.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Based on your misrepresentation of his beliefs I would not be expecting an answer from him if I were you.

Then, what some may see as the implications of his possible silence or deflection - in the face of what I believe is my honest and spot on encapsulation of his beliefs and the question attendant thereto - will form part of the discussion.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Yes, God elevated us, but not because He needs us, He loves us.

In the closing pages of the Bible the symbol of the New Jerusalem has both a "romantic" theme and a practical theme. On one hand she is the Bride - which speaks of love.
But she is also the tabernacle of God as His temple.

So yes, He loves the eternally redeemed.
But He also has found for Himself a habitation of God in spirit a perfect living dwelling place which He sought (Isaiah 66:1,2, Eph. 22:15,16), for which He looked and needs.

Originally posted by @sonship
In the closing pages of the Bible the symbol of the New Jerusalem has both a "romantic" theme and a practical theme. On one hand she is the [b]Bride - which speaks of love.
But she is also the tabernacle of God as His temple.

So yes, He loves the eternally redeemed.
But He also has found for Himself a habitation of God in spirit a ...[text shortened]... ing place which He sought (Isaiah 66:1,2, Eph. 22:15,16), for which He looked and needs.[/b]

God again does not need us, but He wants us, and He loves us.
Needs mean He has to have, that is not the case with us.
He could if He wanted make more of us out of stones!
He could have done that throughout all of time, He does not need.
He loves, which is better, needs requires something to be lacking that is required, He
lacks nothing, He is God, the great I AM.

Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
God again does not need us, but He wants us, and He loves us.
Needs mean He has to have, that is not the case with us.
He could if He wanted make more of us out of stones!
He could have done that throughout all of time, He does not need.
He loves, which is better, needs requires something to be lacking that is required, He
lacks nothing, He is God, th ...[text shortened]... raham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

God again does not need us, but He wants us, and He loves us.

When God delivered the Hebrews from Egypt it was only because of His love for them?

Go to Exodus and count the number of chapters that are dedicated to instructions on how to build the tabernacle. From chapter 25 through chapter 40 is concerned with the tabernacle, its furniture and construction.

That is 16 chapters dedicated to the dwelling place God wanted to have on the earth.

There is much writing given to building of God's tabernacle after the loving deliverance of the Hebrews from Egypt. Many of us didn't think that these chapters were very important. But they are crucial in as a window into the whole revelation of the Bible.

Again, in addition to God's great love for the redeemed Hebrews much is said about the tabernacle they were to build for God.

it was a picture of something very profound of God's need to dwell on the earth in His creation man.

Needs mean He has to have, that is not the case with us.

Since the creation of the universe God has to have His tabernacle, His dwelling place with man. In fact He CREATED the universe for this purpose. It is not too much to say that it is His need.

A hint of this is in Isaiah 66:1,2 of which you say I am making too much of man.
No, i am estimating man's importance to God according to God's words.

"Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, and the earth the footstool for My feet. Where then is the house that you will build for Me." (v.1)

The Jews could have answered - "The tabernacle in the wilderness Lord. And then the temple that King Solomon built for You. That's the house we built for You."

The implication is that that house first of acacia wood and gold and then of stones and gold was not the REAL house of God that God seeks. But ultimately His dwelling place will be in man.

"Where is the house that you will build for Me, and where is the place of My rest? And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.

But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word."

This is a man who is not taken over by the pride of Satan. He is poor in spirit and contrite rather than proud, independent, and rebellious. God looks to this kind of humanity for His dwelling place and His rest.

Firstly, in Jesus Christ He obtained the man to whom He was looking - poor and contrite who trembles at the word of God.

Recall that Jesus, the Son of God, told the Jews that if they destroyed this temple He would raise it up in three days. They were still occupied with the physical temple Herod built.

" His disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of Your house shall devour Me.

The Jews then answered and said to Him, What sign do you show us, seeing that you do these things? Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple. and in three days I will raise it up.

Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken." (John 2:17-22)

God does greatly love man. And God has His need for a dwelling place in this man whom He loves.

God has no need among the items of the universe which He all created. But God looks to the inner being of the man He created to be His dwelling place and living holy temple.
He started with Christ and intends to expand this Christ into a corporate group of billions of constituents of the house of God.

It is not too much to say that this is a need of God.
Yes God has Christ and God even is Christ.
But God also needs Christ for the fulfillment of His eternal purpose to co-mingle with man as a habitation of God in spirit.

He could if He wanted make more of us out of stones!

But this is all outward. To dispense Himself INTO us to be our divine life and nature, He needs Christ. And He needs our cooperation to let Christ make His home in our hearts through faith.

Why didn't God simply miraculously have the tabernacle erected from nothing in Exodus ? What is the lesson that the Hebrews had to participate so much in the furnishings and building of that tabernacle ? Did God put Himself in a position that He needed their cooperation ?

There was no miraculous appearing of the tabernacle but rather 16 some chapters of instructions on how it should be built.

The closing sentences of Exodus is a window into the closing two chapters of the entire divine revelation of the Bible in Revelation 21,22.

Exodus closes with the glory of God coming down to fill the tabernacle. God is now ready to dwell on the earth in the tabernacle build by His people according to His precise instructions - Exodus 40:34-38.

Cont. with your other comments below.

Originally posted by @sonship

God again does not need us, but He wants us, and He loves us.

When God delivered the Hebrews from Egypt it was only because of His love for them?

Go to [b]Exodus and count the number of chapters that are dedicated to instructions on how to build the tabernacle. From chapter 25 through chapter 40 is concerned with th ...[text shortened]... g to His precise instructions - Exodus 40:34-38.

Cont. with your other comments below.[/b]

Don't bother we are repeating ourselves. We disagree.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Don't bother we are repeating ourselves. We disagree.

KellyJay, it is not yet a bother to me.
We disagree maybe. But I feel to present this aspect of the matter.

I you wish I will not address it to you personally.

Christianity in its state today too often views God's salvation only from the standpoint of needy human beings. The recovery of neglected revelation speaks to the eternal purpose of God in addition.

We are often too much on the side of thinking -
"We're the needy ones. All the pitiful need is on the side of sinners. God has no need. All the need is on our pitiful side."

Well, there is some ground to think God has no need of anything in addition to the billions of items He has created. But God's creating work is only one part of His work. God has also a work of taking the troublesome free willed man that He has created, and working Himself into this man.

For this God did not simply say "Let there be New Jerusalem". God has to go through some trouble. If we were lifeless pieces of wood then there would be no trouble. But because we are with a will, mind, emotion, our own intention, etc. if we are off on our own agenda, this causes God some difficulty. He then has a need to overcome this difficulty, which for certain He will.

On one hand God is in no need -

" I will not take take a bull from your house Nor goats from your fold, For every animal of the forest is Mine. The cattle upon a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, and I am aware of everything that moves in the field.

If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the WORLD is Mine and the fullness thereof." (Psalm 50:9-12)

So we worship God the source of the whole creation. He needs nothing because it all belongs to Him Who created it. I will not and cannot argue with this. I affirm it.

But there is another side. God places Himself into a position in which He will not act unilaterally. He will act in consort with a man whose will is in harmony with the divine will.

In the Babylonian Captivity the prophet Daniel studied the prophecy of Jeremiah. He ascertained that the captivity would last for seventy years. According to Jeremiah Israel would be seventy years in captivity.

Did Daniel just passively sit around and count the years ?
No. Daniel sensed the need of God for man's faithful living and petition harmonizing with the divine will.