Evidence for God?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, the man said evidence, not proof.

Enough evidence to bring a case to trial may or may not be enough to prove a man's guilt, depending on the jury hearing the case, but it's certainly enough to begin piecing it together and start asking questions.

For me, most of the natural world (yes, even though I know the physics involved in maintaining it) s ...[text shortened]... you try, evidence for or against God cannot be turned into incontrovertible proof.

That is certainly a valid argument. It still may not be true though. A friend of mine when asked that question said of course there is a god, all you have to do is look at the trees and you can see it.

It certainly LOOKS like a god did all that but looking like it does and actually having a god do it are two ends of the spectrum.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is certainly a valid argument. It still may not be true though. A friend of mine when asked that question said of course there is a god, all you have to do is look at the trees and you can see it.

It certainly LOOKS like a god did all that but looking like it does and actually having a god do it are two ends of the spectrum.

But we have a written record from Moses who God spoke to that says God claimed He created the heavens and the earth and all living things on the earth and in what order God did it. God also provided Moses with a brief history of his ancestors from the beginning and there was not an ape among them. That is much easier to expect a reasonable person to believe than what you atheists evilutionists put forward in your highly speculative conjectures.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
But we have a written record from Moses who God spoke to that says God claimed He created the heavens and the earth and all living things on the earth and in what order God did it. God also provided Moses with a brief history of his ancestors from the beginning and there was not an ape among them. That is much easier to expect a reasonable person to believ ...[text shortened]... you atheists evilutionists put forward in your highly speculative conjectures.

The Instructor

There are lots of different creation stories.

If Moses (or God) were lying or mistaken, how could we find out that they were lying or mistaken?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
There are lots of different creation stories.

If Moses (or God) were lying or mistaken, how could we find out that they were lying or mistaken?

--- Penguin.

I don't know. Nobody has shown such a method so far.

The Instructor

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you think it is foolish just to want evidence I can see, hear or feel? It is foolish to not just trust in the theologians when they say have faith?

When I came to God I went to God not through some theologian, for the
first year I became a Christian I didn't go to church, but instead went to
various Bible studies at different people's homes. You are to caught up
in religion, get past that, and look for God, He is better than any religion.
Kelly

Originally posted by Penguin
Well the stars moving in this way is also not proof, it may be done by some hyper-advanced civilization who have evolved the same way we did. However, it would be pretty extraordinary evidence, which is what I would need.

The brute fact of the universe does not necessarily point to any intelligence and certainly does not point to any supernatural deity.
...[text shortened]... ent, loving deity from providing such extraordinary evidence of its existence.

---- penguin.

You are assuming that God wants anyone who would neglect what He
has already shown. What if its plain to see and only those that want to
reject can? Then only honest hearts (which are more important than the
dishonest ones) will find God if they look.
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Man must choose his side, and choose wisely, and this is the final exam.

Do you allow that some people will choose wrongly—but in all honesty, and to the best of their knowledge, intelligence and integrity?[/b]

Some will be fooled, yes, it says as much right there in the Bible. But the price of failure in this regard is too high. The Bible cautions us many times to NOT be fooled. Christians are thus armed with a belief that some entity or entities will try to fool us, and so we are warned and should not fall into the trap.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is certainly a valid argument. It still may not be true though. A friend of mine when asked that question said of course there is a god, all you have to do is look at the trees and you can see it.

It certainly LOOKS like a god did all that but looking like it does and actually having a god do it are two ends of the spectrum.

Precisely right. There is no proof, as we define proof. We must choose, either God and righteousness, or Satan and sin. If we had proof of God then we would have no choice but to realize that if we do not choose him, we will surely die in our sin. So the choice becomes choose God or die. Well, what kind of choice is that? So we all choose God, but God does not want a bunch of automatons running around chanting his name, what he wants is to be loved and honored and cherished as our celestial Father and there are certainly some who chose God only to keep from dying, those who do not hold Him in their hearts as He wants. The only recourse is to allow Man to choose his god, either good or evil, to hold in his heart of his own free will. Through faith in our belief in Him, not because we were shown the correct choice. It is the only way.

Originally posted by KellyJay
When I came to God I went to God not through some theologian, for the
first year I became a Christian I didn't go to church, but instead went to
various Bible studies at different people's homes. You are to caught up
in religion, get past that, and look for God, He is better than any religion.
Kelly

Here is truth.

I was brought to God through two sorority sisters in college. They opened my eyes to the plan God has for us. I was not ready for a denominational church yet either, and I spent almost a year in Bible studies in people's homes also.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Some will be fooled, yes, it says as much right there in the Bible. But the price of failure in this regard is too high. The Bible cautions us many times to NOT be fooled. Christians are thus armed with a belief that some entity or entities will try to fool us, and so we are warned and should not fall into the trap.

Exactly, that is why I strongly guard against believing the earth is billions of years old and that we are a product of evilution. That is not what I see in the Holy Bible. I see that God created man, in one day, fully formed before breathing life into him. There is no gradual evilution over long periods of time mentioned there. If you wish to believe these men, who call themselves scientist, then that is up to you; but don't claim it does not conflict with the Holy Bible.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't know. Nobody has shown such a method so far.

The Instructor

Which is why the belief in such things is as sensible as the belief in Russell's Teapot or the invisible pink unicorn that lives in my fridge.

There is effectively, no evidence for God.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Precisely right. There is no proof, as we define proof. We must choose, either God and righteousness, or Satan and sin. If we had proof of God then we would have no choice but to realize that if we do not choose him, we will surely die in our sin. So the choice becomes choose God or die. Well, what kind of choice is that? So we all choose God, but God ...[text shortened]... h faith in our belief in Him, not because we were shown the correct choice. It is the only way.

I commented on the problems with the free will argument on the previous page. Did you see that? What did you think?

[edit: here's the salient bit]
Your argument for the need for doubt in order to provide the possibility of free will also does not hold water: you believe that after this life, at least some of us will wind up in heaven yes? In heaven, is there free will? Is there proof of god?
If there is no free will in heaven, then why is it so precious here? If there is no prof of god then it is unlike any description of heaven than I have ever heard before. Likewise if evil exists in heaven.

So I can see nothing preventing an omnipotent, loving deity from providing such extraordinary evidence of its existence.
[/edit]
--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
Which is why the belief in such things is as sensible as the belief in Russell's Teapot or the invisible pink unicorn that lives in my fridge.

There is effectively, [b]no evidence for God.

--- Penguin.[/b]

Or there is so much and you refuse to see it.
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds
Exactly, that is why I strongly guard against believing the earth is billions of years old and that we are a product of evilution. That is not what I see in the Holy Bible. I see that God created man, in one day, fully formed before breathing life into him. There is no gradual evilution over long periods of time mentioned there. If you wish to believe t ...[text shortened]... that is up to you; but don't claim it does not conflict with the Holy Bible.

The Instructor

It doesn't. What it conflicts with is your narrow worldview.

Originally posted by Penguin
I commented on the problems with the free will argument on the previous page. Did you see that? What did you think?

[edit: here's the salient bit]
Your argument for the need for doubt in order to provide the possibility of free will also does not hold water: you believe that after this life, at least some of us will wind up in heaven yes? In heaven, i ...[text shortened]... deity from providing such extraordinary evidence of its existence.
[/edit]
--- Penguin.

I was going to say that you're putting the cart before the horse here. But what is more true is that you are putting the cart behind the horse, but you're failing to hitch them up.

The point of free will and of my idea that there cannot be proof of God is to make man's choice bias-free and clearly his own choice. Just like you are not provided the answers to an exam because the point of the exam is to test your knowledge, not someone else's.

Once we get to heaven, the choice has obviously been made. God can show Himself to us all He likes in Heaven and it doesn't affect our choice because the choice has already been made. By the way, this is also why, throughout the Bible, God shows Himself, or at least proof of Himself (speaking from the burning bush, the conception of Jesus, etc.), to those of faith, those who have already made their decision.

Do you get my point now?

"So I can see nothing preventing an omnipotent, loving deity from providing such extraordinary evidence of its existence."

What prevents it is that God wants of us our choice, not His own. For Him to provide proof of Himself to the world at large is to just toss out the entire Biblical history of man. God's plan from the beginning is finalized with our conscious decision to choose either God or Satan. Everything that has come before, including His sacrifice of His Son on the cross, was to make our choice not only possible, but meaningful. Why would He screw it all up at the last minute?