Free Will

@divegeester said
Is it that you don’t see any evidence of god interfering with free will?

Not so much that..... but He cannot interfere.
If He interferes with free will, then why give it at all?

@chaney3 said
I don't know how the Bible addresses the issue of free will, but my understanding is that we are all given the choice to do either good or bad with that choice. God, of course, wants us to choose good.

But.....if we choose to do bad, and our actions will harm an innocent person, how can God stop it? If He stops it, then by default He has impeded upon our choice.

(I coul ...[text shortened]... man's choice to protect another, but let another man commit evil and hurt someone using his choice)

Freedom of choice is not the same thing as attaining the goal tied to the choice.

For example, if I chose to jump off a skyscraper and fly down, instead of taking the elevator, people wouldn't say that gravity robbed me of my freedom to choose. They'd say I made a really stupid choice.

@bigdogg said
Freedom of choice does not guarantee attaining the goal tied to the choice.

For example, if I chose to jump off a skyscraper and fly down, instead of taking the elevator, people wouldn't say that gravity robbed me of my freedom to choose. They'd say I made a really stupid choice.

The question I am asking is: if you choose to jump off a building.... will God intervene and stop you?

(I don't think that you believe in God, so it's a moot point anyway)

@chaney3 said
The question I am asking is: if you choose to jump off a building.... will God intervene and stop you?

(I don't think that you believe in God, so it's a moot point anyway)

Well, say I am wrong and there is a God, and he sent an angel to catch me before I fell.

He still wouldn't have deprived me of freedom to choose. He only saved me from the consequences of my bad decision.

@bigdogg said
Well, say I am wrong and there is a God, and he sent an angel to catch me before I fell.

He still wouldn't have deprived me of freedom to choose. He only saved me from the consequences of my bad decision.

Okay, that's a good point.

@divegeester said
“21 votes” 😂

Sock puppet show

Actually, the same poll has been posted in a few threads... Something for Russ to sort out.

@chaney3 said
What do you know about free will, Biblically?
What's your view on the subject?

I’m not going to give you a biblical exegesis if that’s what’s your asking for, but I’ll answer your second question based on what my understanding of it is.

It is impossible to read the bible and not come to the conclusion that (according to the bible), god interferes in the intellectual/cognitive free will of not just humans but the cosmos itself. But only at certain times!

- creation: creation is an interference in the mechanics of the cosmos. The cosmos was clearly not going to come up with life by itself so god interfered.

- woman: the creation of eve was an interference with God’s creation, the man. Did go ask Adam is he wanted a woman? No, god saw and decided that it was not good for Adam to be along and so he created Eve to be Adam’s “helper”.

- instructions to Abraham, the prophets, David, the apostles etc.

- parting of the Red Sea, stoping the sun in the sky, sending down fire and brimstone etc.

- hardening hearts, softening hearts. Manipulation of attitudes and emotions.

- healings, miracles etc

But I think your question is “why isn’t God stop Hitler”? Which is another way of asking “why does bad stuff happen”? Which is another way of asking “why didn’t God kill Satan?”

The conventional answer is usually a decorated “god moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform” which is not a scripture by the way, it’s a poem or something.

So in short, yes the bible clearly indicates God’s inter fence in free will. And no I don’t know why he didn’t kill Satan or why he’s going to eternally torture billions of people for eternity because he failed to save them.

You have three options:
1) swallow it all, just accept it, get your head down, double down in it, clench your firsts and own it. This is what Kellyjay, sonship and others do.

2) reject all as man made rubbish and remain atheist or seek a different path/religion

3) cherry pick the bits which make sense and live the best life you can.

@trev33 said
Actually, the same poll has been posted in a few threads... Something for Russ to sort out.

Sort out the profanity loophole or your multiple voting accounts?

@chaney3 said
The question I am asking is: if you choose to jump off a building.... will God intervene and stop you?

I sincerely urge you NOT to put this to the test. Satan tried this with Jesus and Jesus didn’t go for it. It’s a temptation which is as old as the earth.

Nor to “pick up snakes” (“they shall take up snakes” - Bible)

Nor to withhold medical intervention (e.g. blood transfusions) from children as some people do.

@divegeester said
I’m not going to give you a biblical exegesis if that’s what’s your asking for, but I’ll answer your second question based on what my understanding of it is.

It is impossible to read the bible and not come to the conclusion that (according to the bible), god interferes in the intellectual/cognitive free will of not just humans but the cosmos itself. But only at certai ...[text shortened]... different path/religion

3) cherry pick the bits which make sense and live the best life you can.

If you look at the stories in the Bible you will find that God doesn't interfere with man's choices, but assists AFTER the choice has been made, and that's the point of this thread.

Adam and Eve made their choice, God let them.

Jonah made his choice to disobey, God let him.

Moses chose to kill a man, God let him make his choice.

King David made bad choice after bad choice, which included lust and murder, and God let him.

Samson made multiple bad choices, God let him.

The mother and daughter chose to ask for the head of John the Baptist, and God didn't interfere with their choice.

The thread title is "free will", which may not be in the Bible, in those words, but it's clear that we all have choices to make, and my question was..... does God interfere with those choices? It seems that He does NOT.

God allows bad choices, which impacts our lives and the lives of others. Then He may get involved with the consequences of those bad choices. (But He does NOT stop the bad choice, otherwise there is NO choice, or free will)

@chaney3 said
If you look at the stories in the Bible you will find that God doesn't interfere with man's choices, but assists AFTER the choice has been made, and that's the point of this thread.

Adam and Eve made their choice, God let them.

Jonah made his choice to disobey, God let him.

Moses chose to kill a man, God let him make his choice.

King David made bad choice after ba ...[text shortened]... those bad choices. (But He does NOT stop the bad choice, otherwise there is NO choice, or free will)

God did interfere with some choices and not with others.

For example intervening to tell the three wise men to go home a different route to avoid Herod.

@divegeester said
God did interfere with some choices and not with others.

For example intervening to tell the three wise men to go home a different route to avoid Herod.

I think that God, through the Holy Spirit, may impact our thoughts and try to guide us, but our choice is OURS to make.

The wise men chose to follow God's warning, but as I pointed out, God instructed Jonah what he should do but Jonah refused and ended up suffering because of it.

Edit: said differently, making a bad choice could result in a sin, which I believe God won't stop.

@bigdogg said
He still wouldn't have deprived me of freedom to choose. He only saved me from the consequences of my bad decision.

Bingo!

God saves. Forgiveness received is forgiveness bestowed.

@chaney3 said
I think that God, through the Holy Spirit, may impact our thoughts and try to guide us, but our choice is OURS to make.

The wise men chose to follow God's warning, but as I pointed out, God instructed Jonah what he should do but Jonah refused and ended up suffering because of it.

Edit: said differently, making a bad choice could result in a sin, which I believe God won't stop.

Yes, so sometimes god intervened in choices and other times he didn’t.

@josephw said
Bingo!

God saves. Forgiveness received is forgiveness bestowed.

“God saves. Forgiveness received is forgiveness bestowed.”

What does that even mean?