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    19 May '06 12:361 edit
    Is there really such a thing as free will?
    First lets consider the belief that god is an all-knowing being.
    If you accept that god is an all-knowing being.
    Then one would have to argue.
    God knows how your life will start and end also knows everything in between.
    Having said that and accepted as fact.
    The only way possible for God to know everything would be due to the fact he wills it to be so. Therefore no one has free will and everyone is living as god wills it.
  2. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 12:50
    Originally posted by chronicman
    Is there really such a thing as free will?
    First lets consider the belief that god is an all-knowing being.
    If you accept that god is an all-knowing being.
    Then one would have to argue.
    God knows how your life will start and end also knows everything in between.
    Having said that and accepted as fact.
    The only way possible for God to know every ...[text shortened]... act he wills it to be so. Therefore no one has free will and everyone is living as god wills it.
    It is logically possible to know about an action without influencing it.
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    19 May '06 12:52
    Originally posted by Halitose
    It is logically possible to know about an action without influencing it.
    interesting thought .... how so ?
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 13:09
    Originally posted by chronicman
    interesting thought .... how so ?
    I know person X will do/did Y. Does that mean I forced X to do it? This is a question of special knowledge. Remember, we're talking about logical possibility here.

    The problem with your argument is that it is bound by the assumption that God is time-constrained like we are.
  5. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    19 May '06 13:14
    A more interesting thought: is it possible to have a thought that is not based on something else?
  6. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    19 May '06 13:171 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    It is logically possible to know about an action without influencing it.
    Aren't you morally obliged to prevent bad things from happening if it is in your power to do so? I mean, if you know a car is going to hit a child, and you can do something about it, don't you act? Especially if you have super-powers? (Just giving you some more practice...you should know this stuff by heart by now).

    Another example...your pissed friend wants to drive home. Shouldn't you grab the keys?
  7. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 13:19
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    A more interesting thought: is it possible to have a thought that is not based on something else?
    Only when you're thinking nothing. 😀

    I think it was Aristotle who was asked the question: what is nothing? He replied: it's what rocks dream about.
  8. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 13:22
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Aren't you morally obliged to prevent bad things from happening if it is in your power to do so? I mean, if you know a car is going to hit a child, and you can do something about it, don't you act? Especially if you have super-powers? (Just giving you some more practice...you should know this stuff by heart by now).

    Another example...your pissed friend wants to drive home. Shouldn't you grab the keys?
    For us mortals I believe it is our lot in life. Directing such a question to an omnipotent, omniscient Creator bears some presuppositions I'm not sure I can answer (or even counter).
  9. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    19 May '06 13:26
    Originally posted by Halitose
    For us mortals I believe it is our lot in life. Directing such a question to an omnipotent, omniscient Creator bears some presuppositions I'm not sure I can answer (or even counter).
    OK. Isn't the whole point of being a Christian giving up your free will, saying Thy Will Be Done? That is your free will only serves the purpose of getting you to the point where you relinquish it.
  10. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 13:301 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    That is your free will only serves the purpose of getting you to the point where you relinquish it.
    Absolutely not. I believe God is all for free, self-expression -- the difference being that it’s within a set of boundaries. As noted to No1, absolute individual freedom within a larger community is an oxymoron.
  11. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 13:33
    Originally posted by Halitose
    ...free, self-expression
    Even art has its boundaries -- an essential part of a painting is the frame. If you wish to paint a giraffe with a short neck, you have only succeeded in not painting a giraffe.
  12. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    19 May '06 13:52
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Only when you're thinking nothing. 😀

    I think it was Aristotle who was asked the question: what is nothing? He replied: it's what rocks dream about.
    So could you say that the tought was then caused by that something else? After all, the thought could not have been realized if that something else hadn't existed first, right?
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    19 May '06 13:531 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    I know person X will do/did Y. Does that mean I forced X to do it? This is a question of special knowledge. Remember, we're talking about logical possibility here.

    The problem with your argument is that it is bound by the assumption that God is time-constrained like we are.
    can you really know what X will do ?
    yes you can know what X did.
    X will do Y,Z or W but you can not know until X has done.

    Now god knows what X will do. It's been said time and time again.
    and this is possible because where told to belive it is ?
  14. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 14:03
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    So could you say that the tought was then caused by that something else? After all, the thought could not have been realized if that something else hadn't existed first, right?
    True. That's where the metaphysics of the mind come in IMHO -- here is something not strictly bound by causality. A doorway for the supernatural, if you wish.
  15. Standard memberHalitose
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    19 May '06 14:05
    Originally posted by chronicman
    can you really know what X will do ?
    yes you can know what X did.
    X will do Y,Z or W but you can not know until X has done.

    Now god knows what X will do. It's been said time and time again.
    and this is possible because where told to belive it is ?
    Think of it this way:

    God is outside of time -- so he sees everything inside time like it was the present.
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