free will

Originally posted by Halitose
Think of it this way:

God is outside of time -- so he sees everything inside time like it was the present.

Then I must ask. Since God is an all-knowing being. Why create? Apparently God knows the beginning, middle and end prior to creation.
Do you feel God needs to be entertained and is watching us like a movie?

Originally posted by chronicman
Then I must ask. Since God is an all-knowing being. Why create? Apparently God knows the beginning, middle and end prior to creation.
Do you feel God needs to be entertained and is watching us like a movie?

I can only answer part of that question (see my answer to BdN re: presuppositions). I believe the ultimate goal of creating free moral-agents (at least as far as I can see) is for God to have communion with us (communion requiring some sort of reciprocation).

Originally posted by Halitose
I can only answer part of that question (see my answer to BdN re: presuppositions). I believe the ultimate goal of creating free moral-agents (at least as far as I can see) is for God to have communion with us (communion requiring some sort of reciprocation).

I must go look up the definitions of a few of your words and will coment again shortly after.

Originally posted by chronicman
Is there really such a thing as free will?
First lets consider the belief that god is an all-knowing being.
If you accept that god is an all-knowing being.
Then one would have to argue.
God knows how your life will start and end also knows everything in between.
Having said that and accepted as fact.
The only way possible for God to know every ...[text shortened]... act he wills it to be so. Therefore no one has free will and everyone is living as god wills it.

As this subject has been beat nigh unto death, and bears an unholy resemblance to "Groundhog Day," it appears we do not have free will. You, chronicman, were bound--- without choice in the matter--- to begin the thread, and we--- the unwilling participants--- were thusly bound to contribute. You must respond. Now.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
As this subject has been beat nigh unto death, and bears an unholy resemblance to "Groundhog Day," it appears we do not have free will. You, chronicman, were bound--- without choice in the matter--- to begin the thread, and we--- the unwilling participants--- were thusly bound to contribute. You must respond. Now.

Is there a thread he i missed before posting mine.
I had spent a good amount of time reading others.
Groundhog Day?
I was greatly tempted not to post again but something(God?) compelled me to go on!

Originally posted by chronicman
Is there a thread he i missed before posting mine.
I had spent a good amount of time reading others.
Groundhog Day?
I was greatly tempted not to post again but something(God?) compelled me to go on!

You were late. I said "NOW." Oops. There goes the idea of 'no free will.' Drats.

"Groundhog Day" is a classic Bill Murray movie, wherein he is made to relive a day repeatedly until he 'gets it right,' as it were. Stuck in Puxatawney, PA, for the annual catching of the groundhog catching his shadow, it's a great film about redemption. However, he had no choice in the matter but to go through the day hundreds of times, with complete knowledge of everything that was going to happen around him.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You were late. I said "NOW." Oops. There goes the idea of 'no free will.' Drats.

"Groundhog Day" is a classic Bill Murray movie, wherein he is made to relive a day repeatedly until he 'gets it right,' as it were. Stuck in Puxatawney, PA, for the annual catching of the groundhog catching his shadow, it's a great film about redemption. However, he h ...[text shortened]... ds of times, with complete knowledge of everything that was going to happen around him.

NOW is not ever the same for us. I was away and now for me was now but was later to you.

I returned and debated oh let’s say for 2 minutes then posted

Yes was a good movie, but he only had knowledge of what was to happen the next day as long as he repeated the last day as soon as he choose to make a new statement or travel in a new direction. He no longer knew the outcome.

I would say the movie more closely resembles the butterfly effect.Not free will

Man was created to worship God and have fellowship with Him. God did not want beings to worship Him who did not want to. Even the angels made a choice when Satan rebelled and some rebelled with him. The reason they cannot be redeemed is because they sinned on a higher level than man.

Man is given a choice (freewill) as to whether or not he wants to fellowship with God. If you choose to have a personal relationship with the Creator, you have to be holy because God is holy. Now, since you and I can’t ever be good enough to stand in His presence, He sent Jesus into the world to pay the penalty for choosing evil over good. Faith in Jesus is accounted to us for righteousness, so when I stand in God’s presence at judgment, He will say Jesus paid the penalty for your sins and nothing is to be charged against you. If you reject the Gospel and go to hell, it will be because you chose not to believe the report about Jesus God gave in the Bible. All this info is in your Bible in more detail than I can go into here.

I know this sounds like foolishness to some, but the Bible says preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Don’t ask me why God chose to do things this way; He did not consult me and ask my opinion.

Originally posted by masscat
Man is given a choice (freewill) as to whether or not he wants to fellowship with God.

Originally posted by masscat
Man is given a choice (freewill) as to whether or not he wants to fellowship with God.

So God is not an all-knowing being because he dose not know if man is going to choose to follow him? IF SO freewill dose exsit.

I'm just saying you can not have it both ways.
Can you?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Aren't you morally obliged to prevent bad things from happening if it is in your power to do so? I mean, if you know a car is going to hit a child, and you can do something about it, don't you act? Especially if you have super-powers? (Just giving you some more practice...you should know this stuff by heart by now).

Another example...your pissed friend wants to drive home. Shouldn't you grab the keys?

how much do you like your freind.....will tell you the answer

Originally posted by chronicman

The only way possible for God to know everything would be due to the fact he wills it to be so. Therefore no one has free will and everyone is living as god wills it.[/b]

Not true. The other possibility is that the reason why God knows what you will do is because he is already in the future watching you do it. You haven't factored in the fact that God is not time limited. Having free will does not mean that God cannot know our whole lives inside out. How does God know what you are doing right now? Because he just watches you doing it but does that mean you are not free? So if God lives in the past , present and future and is not time bound then your tommorrow is just as much His 'now' as now is. That is how he knows , not because you are not free.

Originally posted by chronicman
Then I must ask. Since God is an all-knowing being. Why create? Apparently God knows the beginning, middle and end prior to creation.
Do you feel God needs to be entertained and is watching us like a movie?

The word 'prior' has no meaning in the eyes of God. You assume he lives on a time line like us. He does not 'predict' he just watches us but not in a timebased sense. The idea of prediction suggests our actions are determined. If you had a time machine and could travel into the future you might see me doing something but that would not neccesarily mean I was not free to do anything else because whatever you saw me doing was what I had chosen to do. If had chosen something else then you would have seen that instead.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The word 'prior' has no meaning in the eyes of God. You assume he lives on a time line like us. He does not 'predict' he just watches us but not in a timebased sense. The idea of prediction suggests our actions are determined. If you had a time machine and could travel into the future you might see me doing something but that would not neccesarily mean ...[text shortened]... what I had chosen to do. If had chosen something else then you would have seen that instead.

I keep being told to consider things about God that God has not told us to consider about him.
Why would I assume God travels through time. There is no mention of this anywhere in the bible.
The bible doses say God knows everything. The bible doses say GOD has given man freewill.
When you apply them together one has to be false. I am missing something in my readings. It needs to be pointed out to me. When someone comes across it in the bible let me know where I missed it.

Originally posted by Halitose
Think of it this way:

God is outside of time -- so he sees everything inside time like it was the present.

So say God sees this person doing X, is it possible to do Y instead?

I should think not. Thus, there is no free will.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Not true. The other possibility is that the reason why God knows what you will do is because he is already in the future watching you do it. You haven't factored in the fact that God is not time limited. Having free will does not mean that God cannot know our whole lives inside out. How does God know what you are doing right now? Because he just watche ...[text shortened]... row is just as much His 'now' as now is. That is how he knows , not because you are not free.

So if God is in the future (which implies that there is only one future), then my future has already been chosen for me, even before I was born?