free will

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You may as well say,"Can I break the world record in pole vaulting?" How in God's name do we know what you are first of all capable of doing; second, willing to do; and, third, what you will be successful in doing?

But the answer is, someone is going to try to assasinate the anti-Christ. He will sustain a mortal head wound and yet ...[text shortened]... The Bible isn't real specific as to the person applying the mortal head wound. Good luck.

I see you are having fun dancing around the point.

This is a highly simple "yes / no" question. Would I be able to kill the anti-Christ, or wouldn't I?

Within the framework of actual free will, I would absolutely be able to do so.

I do appreciate you using the phrase "attempting to assert your free will". It implies (and correctly so) that my "free will" is not so free after all.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
I see you are having fun dancing around the point.

This is a highly simple "yes / no" question. Would I be able to kill the anti-Christ, or wouldn't I?

Within the framework of actual free will, I would absolutely be able to do so.

I do appreciate you using the phrase "attempting to assert your free will". It implies (and correctly so) that my "free will" is not so free after all.

-JC

Free will for man is limited, of course. We cannot create a physical universe, cannot break the laws of physics, cannot create life. Man does his best to imitate God in this sense, witnessed by such modern creations as Dubai, or the many examples of literature since time began.

However, when you ask if you are able to kill the anti-Christ, I have answered as straight forward as possible. The anti-Christ will receive a mortal head wound. Who applies that blow is undetermined, just as when he appears is undetermined, therefore rendering your question, well, silly.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Free will for man is limited, of course. We cannot create a physical universe, cannot break the laws of physics, cannot create life.


I disagree. We have not, as of yet, created these things. Considering the exponential increase in scientific knowledge, it is extremely arrogant to assume we will not eventually have such capabilities.



However, when you ask if you are able to kill the anti-Christ, I have answered as straight forward as possible. The anti-Christ will receive a mortal head wound. Who applies that blow is undetermined, just as when he appears is undetermined, therefore rendering your question, well, silly.

Then there is no "free will" to speak of. Predeterminism and free will are incompatible concepts. Pretending as if we do have some element of freedom in our actions while also claiming certain actions are unalterable is, well, silly.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Free will for man is limited, of course. We cannot create a physical universe, cannot break the laws of physics, cannot create life.


I disagree. We have not, as of yet, created these things. Considering the exponential increase in scientific knowledge, it is extremely arrogant to assume we will not event ...[text shortened]... dom in our actions while also claiming certain actions are unalterable is, well, silly.

-JC[/b]

Considering the exponential increase in scientific knowledge, it is extremely arrogant to assume we will not eventually have such capabilities.
The arrogance here lies with the ones who presume that such things are humanly possible. How long ago was it that we figured out pi? Germs? Our advancements are encouraging, but hardly cause for exuberance, especially in light of our poor handling of basic issues.

Then there is no "free will" to speak of.
1. Based on what?
2. Every post you contribute contradicts your assertion.
3. That's just silly.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Considering the exponential increase in scientific knowledge, it is extremely arrogant to assume we will not eventually have such capabilities.
The arrogance here lies with the ones who presume that such things are humanly possible. How long ago was it that we figured out pi? Germs? Our advancements are encouraging, but hardly cause for exuberance, especially in light of our poor handling of basic issues.[/b]

I don't presume, I simply allow for the potential.


Then there is no "free will" to speak of.
1. Based on what?
2. Every post you contribute contradicts your assertion.
3. That's just silly.

1. Based on your own statements. "Limited free will" is a contradiction to "free will". We have one, or we have the other. Perhaps it is time to stop using term number two completely.
2. Not really.
3. Yes, well now that you've labelled my assertions as "silly" for the second time, I am somehow unsure of what I shall do with myself.

Such stunning oratorical technique is unnerving.

-JC

We seem to be running in a circle here.

Based on what I have been reading. Can I say? God has the power to view my future, not know my future.

If you think God has the power to view my future… then freewill stands.

If you think God knows my future…then freewill dies.

I am excited to see your comments.

Originally posted by chronicman
We seem to be running in a circle here.

Based on what I have been reading. Can I say? God has the power to view my future, not know my future.

If you think God has the power to view my future… then freewill stands.

If you think God knows my future…then freewill dies.

I am excited to see your comments.

God is an independent viewer. Just because God knows what you will do does not mean you performed that particular action with anything but your own free will.

The real question is this:

If YOU knew what will happen on a future date, would you be capable of changing that outcome?

If yes, free will remains intact. If not, free will is not truly "free".

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
God is an independent viewer. Just because God knows what you will do does not mean you performed that particular action with anything but your own free will.

The real question is this:

If [b]YOU knew what will happen on a future date, would you be capable of changing that outcome?

If yes, free will remains intact. If not, free will is not truly "free".

-JC[/b]

At this point in our existence it is not possible for any of us to know the future. So I can only hope if I knew a future event and did not like the outcome. I would hope I could change an action prior to it.

Let's say however unlikely you (churlant) bump into God later today and he reveals himself to you.
You ask God. To tell you what me (chronicman) will be doing at 10am tomorrow.
He pops away to that point in time and returns to you and says Chronicman will be walking in the door to his office at that time tomorrow.
You go to me at my office at 9:55 and wait. At 10am you see me walking through the door.
You see me because God predetermined it.

For freewill to be. Gods answer would have to be something like this.
I God can not tell you what chronicman will be doing at 10am because chronicman has yet to decide what he will be doing at 10am.

Originally posted by chronicman

For freewill to be. Gods answer would have to be something like this.
I God can not tell you what chronicman will be doing at 10am because chronicman has yet to decide what he will be doing at 10am.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to think of this in non-linear terms. You, as Chronicman, enjoy a linear existence (hypothetically speaking of course, as I do not believe our existences ARE fully linear).

Meanwhile God is not linear at all.

To alter your example -

If you asked God what you would be doing at 10am tomorrow, and He told you "arriving at your office", you now have the option to change your mind.

You can call out, or come in early, or late. As long as your schedule is still within your control, free will exists.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
Perhaps it would be more helpful to think of this in non-linear terms. You, as Chronicman, enjoy a linear existence (hypothetically speaking of course, as I do not believe our existences ARE fully linear).

Meanwhile God is not linear at all.

To alter your example -

If you asked God what you would be doing at 10am tomorrow, and He told you "arriving rly, or late. As long as your schedule is still within your control, free will exists.

-JC

I have to ask, and yes I started reading the bible about 4 weeks ago,

Dose the bible say God has the power to view our lives future past and present.

Maybe this should be on a new thread but I not one for clogging the system.

I am a simple man and would like to try my best for my own sake to be factual.

I stated before the bible says God is all knowing and God gave us freewill.
and being I am just a man I can not fathom these two things being true together.

I'm just don't see where the bible states God has these powers I am told to think about.

I am in no way trying to be redundant

Originally posted by chronicman
I have to ask, and yes I started reading the bible about 4 weeks ago,

Dose the bible say God has the power to view our lives future past and present.

Maybe this should be on a new thread but I not one for clogging the system.

I am a simple man and would like to try my best for my own sake to be factual.

I stated before the bible says God is ...[text shortened]... tates God has these powers I am told to think about.

I am in no way trying to be redundant

"For His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees all his steps. There is no darkness not shadow of death where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." (Job 34:21-22).

Among others.

-JC

Originally posted by chronicman
We seem to be running in a circle here.

Based on what I have been reading. Can I say? God has the power to view my future, not know my future.

If you think God has the power to view my future… then freewill stands.

If you think God knows my future…then freewill dies.

I am excited to see your comments.

What makes you think that free will dies if he knows the future? This is quite an assumption.

Originally posted by Churlant
[b]"For His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees all his steps. There is no darkness not shadow of death where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." (Job 34:21-22).

Among others.

-JC[/b]

Thank you, I will look this up and read for understanding this evening.
One can not know the context of this quote with out reading prior to and after.
I'm sure, but at first glance it seems to refer simply to the present.

Originally posted by chronicman
Thank you, I will look this up and read for understanding this evening.
One can not know the context of this quote with out reading prior to and after.
I'm sure, but at first glance it seems to refer simply to the present.

True, though as I said this is only one of many quotes which point to God's powers. In actuality the concept is open to interpretation (as are so many things Biblical), since there is obviously no one passage which reads "God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, have a nice day."

Taken as a whole it is easy to understand God's powers are without limit, thus the conclusion He does indeed know what you will do as well as what you have done.

-JC

Originally posted by whodey
What makes you think that free will dies if he knows the future? This is quite an assumption.

If you read back you will see my reasoning, and maybe you are open enough to understand me.

whodey,
What makes up think this whole thread is not simply one assumption after another.

I can't help it but I take things at there face value.