free will

Originally posted by scottishinnz
In which case God fails both in creating a stone so heavy he cannot lift it, and in not lifting it.

He can do both at once.

Stop thinking in such limiting terms.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
He can do both at once.

Stop thinking in such limiting terms.

-JC

Prove it.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Prove it.

Obviously I can't. There may be a God; there may not. God, should He exist, may be omnipotent; or He may not.

I can show that a being who is "omnipotent" would be capable of anything - as defined by the term. If there is a God, and if God is omnipotent, then God is capable of performing multiple actions which we (as rather limited beings) can only conceptualize as hypothetical paradoxes.

-JC

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand now . However, I do not accept that because God knows what you will do tomorrow it therefore means that you are pre- determined to do this. Your future is still uncertain. God does not know what you will do until you have done it but because he can move around in time he can just nip off into the future and find out what you did as it we ...[text shortened]... the future is set. It 's quirk of his eternal nature but it does not impinge on your free will.

I'm not sure. If God knows our future (and he must with complete certainty to be omniscient) then we can only act one way. God's knoweldge of the future implies that the future is predetermined.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I'm not sure. If God knows our future (and he must with complete certainty to be omniscient) then we can only act one way. God's knoweldge of the future implies that the future is predetermined.

This is a mistake because you imagine God is looking along a timeline from the present into the future like us. If I knew what you were going to do tomorrow then it would be predetermined because it hasn't happened yet and I would be predicting the future , but this is not the same way God knows. For God it has ALREADY happened not 'about to' happen.He does not predict he only watches. He looks AT the timeline sideways not ALONG it like we do. He knows our future but not from a position ON the timeline but OUTSIDE the time line. He can look at what you did thursday morning for a few minutes and then decide to spend a couple of eons looking at what you did weds morning even though for you weds came 'before' thurs.
He can look at your life decisions backwards as well as forwards just like you can flick back and forth through a DVD movie.But he is not in the film itself predicting what the next scene is. He doesn't know what the film will look like but once he's got it he can watch the end first if he likes. In the same way he does not 'know' what you will do 'until' you do it but then he sees every single point of your life as one great big 'now' anyway.

It's so easy to confuse the subtlties of eternity and time with predetermination because they look so similar. Trust me it makes my brain hurt. It's like a two dimensional object trying to understand a three dimensional object but just because it's testing doesn't mean it ain't true.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is a mistake because you imagine God is looking along a timeline from the present into the future like us. If I knew what you were going to do tomorrow then it would be predetermined because it hasn't happened yet and I would be predicting the future , but this is not the same way God knows. For God it has ALREADY happened not 'about to' happen.He ...[text shortened]... e dimensional object but just because it's testing doesn't mean it ain't true.

Very good, but if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born. I don't see free will in that. No matter what perspective God knows my futrue in all that matters is that God knew my future before I did (in my time and not his)

Originally posted by Conrau K
Very good, but if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born. I don't see free will in that. No matter what perspective God knows my futrue in all that matters is that God knew my future before I did (in my time and not his)

We are born as a form of hardware programmed with the software of culture and the psychological hangups that some experiences give us. Until we de-programme ourselves how we can we possibly have free will????

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
We are born as a form of hardware programmed with the software of culture and the psychological hangups that some experiences give us. Until we de-programme ourselves how we can we possibly have free will????

I'm not sure what your on about.

So long as God is omniscient, free will (the definition we are using atleast) cannot be reconciled.

We've come along way since our last debate on free will.

How do you de-programme?

Originally posted by Churlant
Of course that depends on the choice. Can a man create a galaxy? Nope. That's the easy question to which you have an easy answer.

You choose not to answer my own questions, which is fine - but please try not to invent new ones as if they are the same thing.

The bottom line: if a man knows his future, and yet cannot alter it, "free will" does not exist ...[text shortened]... Whether this is applied to Biblical prophesy or not, the end result remains the same.

-JC

The bottom line: if a man knows his future, and yet cannot alter it, "free will" does not exist.
Eh? When did we jump to man knowing the future? I thought we were talking about God's omniscience, not man's ability to know the future. As far as we have seen thus far, man does not know the future.

Whether this is applied to Biblical prophesy or not, the end result remains the same.
As the Bible does not name anyone specifically, it will be difficult for you to make a case here to support that statement. You will recall there was a span of almost 100 years when the Bible was completely removed from society, so it is entirely conceivable that something similar may happen again. And that's just one scenario wherein self-fulfilling prophesy would disappear.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Very good, but if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born. I don't see free will in that. No matter what perspective God knows my futrue in all that matters is that God knew my future before I did (in my time and not his)

No , your future was not decided for you , you decided it (at least the parts you had control over). The only way God can know your future is because you decide your future , he sort of knows what you are 'going to' decide to do. He knows your future but not 'before' you do but at the time you do it but because the time you do it and the time 3 years before are all 'now' for him there is no delay.It's only confusing because he is able to watch what you decide to do in a peculiar way that is virtually impossible to understand. You have still placed God on a similar timeline as yourself. Imagine a 2 dimensional circle trying to make sense of a 3D sphere , the whole thing would seem wierd because it's a matter of dimensional difference. To the circle the idea of rolling around in 3 dimensional space would seem nonsensical.

All the words we are using to debate this (like already , before , knew , predict , decided etc etc)are subtlely based on our understanding of a timeline but they lead us to make mistaken assumptions about God like the idea of prediction (you can only 'predict' if you live in a timeline that has a present and a future)

Here's another analogy. You now know the outcome of the second world war because you live in a different time zone to the 1940's. You know the outcome because that's what happened, you can percieve the outcome (and all the decisions that went into it) due to your privileged position on the timeline. If you were then able to move back into the 1930's you would in one way know what certain people were about to decide but that would not neccessarily mean that it was pre-determined (the word 'pre' is a misleading word here) but it would just mean that you were of a different dimension. Just because we now know what happened in the second world war doesn't mean that it could not have been any other way. It can not now be any other way because it's already happened , but if you live in a different dimension 'already happened' or 'about to happen' aren't really useful words. It's more to do with time travel and dimensions than 'pre' determination

Originally posted by Conrau K
Very good, but if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born. I don't see free will in that. No matter what perspective God knows my futrue in all that matters is that God knew my future before I did (in my time and not his)

Here's yet another way of looking at it. Let's say you are making a decision right now at this exact moment , how does God know what decision you are making ? Presumably you would argue that he just watches the said decision. Does his watching you make your decision any less free than if you were unwatched? Those around you would also know what decision you are making because they would be present with you in that timezone. Would that mean that you weren't free ? Of course it would make no difference.
So how does God know what decision you are making in the future. Answer , in exactly the same way as he knows what decision you are making now , he's just watching you in the present. So in one sense the only difference between somebody watching you make a decision right now and God's perspective is that he is able to be on every single point on the timeline whereas we are restricted to one point at a time

Originally posted by Conrau K
I'm not sure what your on about.

So long as God is omniscient, free will (the definition we are using atleast) cannot be reconciled.

We've come along way since our last debate on free will.

How do you de-programme?

So long as God is omniscient, free will... cannot be reconciled.

I'd like to see you sustain this proposition.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I'm not sure what your on about.

So long as God is omniscient, free will (the definition we are using atleast) cannot be reconciled.

We've come along way since our last debate on free will.

How do you de-programme?

Quantum physics says that some quantum particles can be at two different places in the universe at the same time(duh?) It also says light is both a wave and particle at the same time.

If you accept that quantum physics is not self-contradictory and can be reconciled , why would you throw out the idea of free will and omniscience being irreconcilable just because it makes your head hurt a bit?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Eh? When did we jump to man knowing the future? I thought we were talking about God's omniscience, not man's ability to know the future. As far as we have seen thus far, man does not know the future.

This is where Bible prophesy comes in. Man does know the future, to a certain extent, imagining such prophesy is genuine.

-JC

Originally posted by Conrau K
Very good, but if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born. I don't see free will in that. No matter what perspective God knows my futrue in all that matters is that God knew my future before I did (in my time and not his)

Yet another idea.....

😴

I've just realised what you said here. God did not know your future in 'your time not his' as you put it. He knows it in HIS time not yours. Once you have done something then that cannot be changed but if you insist on placing God in 'your time' and not his, then it will seem as if he knows what you are about to do before it has even happened and therefore appear to be pre determined.
But to God it HAS happened because you chose it , he's not saying "here's what you are about to do , this is the only choice you can make, the future is set" ...he's kinda saying "you can make a number of choices here and you are free to chose any of them , but I am watching which one you are choosing right now in my time ( NOTE-not 'will' chose) because for me it's happening now . Whichever choice you make I will always know which one it is because I am there right now watching you chose freely. But in a real sense the future is not set until you set it in place by choosing a future and at some point in time you will make that choice. That point in time is for you not here yet because you haven't chosen it yet but for me all points in time are equally here and you were free to make that choice in the future just as you were free to choose to boil those eggs in what you label "last week". Incidently , I'm watching you asking your wife to marry you right now 2o years ago, do you remember making that decision? This is sort of how I remember you making decisions in what you call the future."

It 's a simple idea , just hard to contemplate.

Can you tell me how having someone watch you do something automatically makes that something not free?