free will

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Come on Omni, we all know you're not one to shy from a challenge! Can't understand the will of God? Rubbish. This sounds a lot like an "if I can't explain it, I don't need to / not meant to". That's the kind of thinking that I most despise, and is one of religions uglier heads as far as I'm concerned.

Assuming God exists, who is greater? Is it God or God's creation? To understand everything about God and know all that he knows would require you to either be on equal footing with him or be greater than he is. Although many may think they are, this is not the case.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Can you tell me why it is an 'absolute logical requirement' . Why does the idea of only one universe existing mean that there is no potential for others to exist? You have yet to explain this sweeping assumption.

You have written your post using a particular set of words in a particular order. Could you have written it differently? Just because you ...[text shortened]... nes you actually make.

Your argument seems circular and relies on an debatable assumption.

Nope. It only relies on Omnipresence and Free Will. If free will is absolutely free then any possible choice could be made at any time, inwhich case many billions of potential bifuricating universes (potential existances?) exist, one for each choice. To be omnipresent, God must be in each one. If there is only one future that God resides in, then he must have known ahead of time what your choice would be, in which case it wasn't truely free - you HAD to make that choice. It may appear free to you, but there was no other choice that you could have made, or you'd be contradicting the omniscience / omnipresence thing.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Nope. It only relies on Omnipresence and Free Will. If free will is absolutely free then any possible choice could be made at any time, inwhich case many billions of potential bifuricating universes (potential existances?) exist, one for each choice. To be omnipresent, God must be in each one. If there is only one future that God resides in, then he ...[text shortened]... oice that you could have made, or you'd be contradicting the omniscience / omnipresence thing.

So why does a 'potential' universe have to actually 'exist' for it to be a valid choice or possibility? The free will God gives us is based in him sharing his very nature with us not in some science fiction/faction idea of parallel universes.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Nope. It only relies on Omnipresence and Free Will. If free will is absolutely free then any possible choice could be made at any time, inwhich case many billions of potential bifuricating universes (potential existances?) exist, one for each choice. To be omnipresent, God must be in each one. If there is only one future that God resides in, then he ...[text shortened]... oice that you could have made, or you'd be contradicting the omniscience / omnipresence thing.

That is really a great post, thank you.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Nope. It only relies on Omnipresence and Free Will. If free will is absolutely free then any possible choice could be made at any time, inwhich case many billions of potential bifuricating universes (potential existances?) exist, one for each choice. To be omnipresent, God must be in each one. If there is only one future that God resides in, then he ...[text shortened]... oice that you could have made, or you'd be contradicting the omniscience / omnipresence thing.

Your argument makes sense starting from the premise you make. However , it is your very premise that I am challenging. Can you please show why there needs to be alternate realities 'actually existing' in order for these to be other possibilities available. You have not backed up this claim only used it as a platform for everything else. You seem to think that all timelines 'have to' exist in order for there to be freedom but this may or may not be true.It's an unproven premise which is valid for me to disagree with. Infact , you could argue that these timelines exist only in our minds where we consider many outcomes.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your argument makes sense starting from the premise you make. However , it is your very premise that I am challenging. Can you please show why there needs to be alternate realities 'actually existing' in order for these to be other possibilities available. You have not backed up this claim only used it as a platform for everything else. You seem to th ...[text shortened]... u could argue that these timelines exist only in our minds where we consider many outcomes.

If free will truely exists then many outcomes are indeed possible. If our choice is limited (whether we realise it or not) then only one existance need exist. I am not stipulating that many universes DO exist, but that many potential universes / potential futures must exist, and god, to be omnipresent, must exist equally in all of those potential universes.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
If free will truely exists then many outcomes are indeed possible. If our choice is limited (whether we realise it or not) then only one existance need exist. I am not stipulating that many universes DO exist, but that many potential universes / potential futures must exist, and god, to be omnipresent, must exist equally in all of those potential universes.

I guess that's why so many christians became excited when they read of quantum mechanic's indeterminacy. Pitty they didn't read the fine print about entailing randomness.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
If free will truely exists then many outcomes are indeed possible. If our choice is limited (whether we realise it or not) then only one existance need exist. I am not stipulating that many universes DO exist, but that many potential universes / potential futures must exist, and god, to be omnipresent, must exist equally in all of those potential universes.i

I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality. If they only potentially exist and not actually exist then God only needs to be present in this universe with all it's potentiality. If a man writes a play and then leaves certain parts of it open to add libbing by the actors why does he need to stray from his seat to another theatre to see this unpredictable performance unfold. If he has given the actors true freedom then the play will be rife with potentiality but there will still only be one play to occurr and that play will exist whereas the other potential plays will not happen. He doesn't have to leave his seat.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality. If they only potentially exist and not actually exist then God only needs to be present in this universe with all it's potentiality. If a man writes a play and then leaves certain parts of it open to add libbing by the actors why does he need to stray from his seat to another ...[text shortened]... l exist whereas the other potential plays will not happen. He doesn't have to leave his seat.

I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality.
It doesn't really. BUT. If we accept free will, then we accept that our future is uncertain. And if we say that there is only one future, then God cannot be omniscient since then our future would be certain and our understanding of free will could not occur, Thus, for God to be omniscient, and for us to have free will, each potential from any event, must become its own reality. In this way, our future is uncertain, but God still knowns our future/s. He is thus omniscient but our future (since we can only exist in one of these realities) cannot be known; however there would exist multiples of you in other realities.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality.
It doesn't really. BUT. If we accept free will, then we accept that our future is uncertain. And if we say that there is only one future, then God cannot be omniscient since then our future would be certain and our understanding of free will could not occur, Thus, for God t ...[text shortened]... ese realities) cannot be known; however there would exist multiples of you in other realities.[/b]

I understand now . However, I do not accept that because God knows what you will do tomorrow it therefore means that you are pre- determined to do this. Your future is still uncertain. God does not know what you will do until you have done it but because he can move around in time he can just nip off into the future and find out what you did as it were , but you are still free. He is omniscient due to being present in the future as well as the present and the past , but NOT because the future is set. It 's quirk of his eternal nature but it does not impinge on your free will.

Within the context of "free will" and faith in God, I have only one question.

Would it be possible for me to assassinate the anti-Christ?

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
Within the context of "free will" and faith in God, I have only one question.

Would it be possible for me to assassinate the anti-Christ?

-JC

Certainly someone's going to try.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Certainly someone's going to try.

Why do you delight in avoiding direct questions?

I didn't ask if anyone would try. I asked if I could do it.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
Why do you delight in avoiding direct questions?

I didn't ask if anyone would try. I asked if I could do it.

-JC

You may as well say,"Can I break the world record in pole vaulting?" How in God's name do we know what you are first of all capable of doing; second, willing to do; and, third, what you will be successful in doing?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You may as well say,"Can I break the world record in pole vaulting?" How in God's name do we know what you are first of all capable of doing; second, willing to do; and, third, what you will be successful in doing?

But the answer is, someone is going to try to assasinate the anti-Christ. He will sustain a mortal head wound and yet live. Maybe that is you in the future, attempting to assert your free will. The Bible isn't real specific as to the person applying the mortal head wound. Good luck.