Originally posted by frogstomp
What my point has been is simply that if God knows what you are going to do before you get the chance to do it, then you really don't have free will, no matter what God might want to call it.
That has to be true except for the conditional argument he didn't create man in the first place.

if God knows what you are going to do before you get the chance to do it, then you really don't have free will, no matter what God might want to call it.
Hogwash. You either don't know the first thing of human nature, or you are purposely ignoring the same. Suppose I were to tell my two oldest boys that mom and I are going to go out for a cup of coffee, leaving them to themselves for three hours. Further, I tell them no video games or television while we are gone, only books and drawing and such.

My intuition, my instinct tells me which of the two will be first to turn on the computer, and which will go for the television. If my limited understanding of their natures offers me such an expansive insight to their predilections, why would God's be any different. And moreover, how does my intuition of their free will actions in any way, shape or form alter their decisions? Answer: my instincts have no bearing at all on their decisions, in the same way God's omniscience does not alter or determine our free will.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]if God knows what you are going to do before you get the chance to do it, then you really don't have free will, no matter what God might want to call it.
Hogwash. You either don't know the first thing of human nature, or you are purposely ignoring the same. Suppose I were to tell my two oldest boys that mom and I are going to go out for a cup of ...[text shortened]... heir decisions, in the same way God's omniscience does not alter or determine our free will.[/b]

Hogwash back to you. He's not saying it's our proclivities that god knows , no, he's saying god sees the future. Which I mignt add, god wouldnt be able to change it so god doesnt have free will either.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Hogwash back to you. He's not saying it's our proclivities that god knows , no, he's saying god sees the future. Which I mignt add, god wouldnt be able to change it so god doesnt have free will either.

While it may be a difficult thing for the finite mind to grasp the infinite, it does not eliminate the latter from being true nonetheless. Omniscience in no demonstrable way eliminates the execution of our free will.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]if God knows what you are going to do before you get the chance to do it, then you really don't have free will, no matter what God might want to call it.
Hogwash. You either don't know the first thing of human nature, or you are purposely ignoring the same. Suppose I were to tell my two oldest boys that mom and I are going to go out for a cup of ...[text shortened]... heir decisions, in the same way God's omniscience does not alter or determine our free will.[/b]

You are not the thing that created us, knowing full well every action we will ever do. If god knows the future he knew it even before we were created, before the big bang he would have to have known and every action or thought he ever did or had, he knew from the first, if there even was a first. SO how do you suppose that we have free will when you have to conjecture a condition where even God , himself has no free-will , to make it work?

Originally posted by frogstomp
You are not the thing that created us, knowing full well every action we will ever do. If god knows the future he knew it even before we were created, before the big bang he would have to have known and every action or thought he ever did or had, he knew from the first, if there even was a first. SO how do you suppose that we have free will whe ...[text shortened]... ou have to conjecture a condition where even God , himself has no free-will , to make it work?

It's not too difficult an idea to get the head around. To know the end from the beginning, to allow for the co-existence of human will and the sovereignty of God is not a small thing, but it is knowable.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
It's not too difficult an idea to get the head around. To know the end from the beginning, to allow for the co-existence of human will and the sovereignty of God is not a small thing, but it is knowable.

Poppycock
You can not get by with saying we have free will and then say that forever it was known to god what our will will be.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Poppycock
You can not get by with saying we have free will and then say that forever it was known to god what our will will be.

And yet you have not shown how His foreknowledge of our actions affected those actions in any way.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
And yet you have not shown how His foreknowledge of our actions affected those actions in any way.

He doesn't need to, because that is not necessary for the argument. The argument doesn't take as a premise that God caused us to act this way or that way. Rather, the argument takes as a premise the claim that if somebody knows that P, then P is true. So, if God knows that you will A, then it is true that you will A, and it is true that you will A prior to your actually A-ing. You are confusing the material implication of the conditional with causal implication.

Originally posted by bbarr
He doesn't need to, because that is not necessary for the argument. The argument doesn't take as a premise that God caused us to act this way or that way. Rather, the argument takes as a premise the claim that if somebody knows that P, then P is true. So, if God knows that you will A, then it is true that you will A, and it is true that you will A prior to y ...[text shortened]... -ing. You are confusing the material implication of the conditional with causal implication.

I'm not confusing any such thing. I cannot be A-ing if I am P-ing. God knew before I decided whether I would be A-ing or P-ing and 'allowed' for the same to occur. Just as the truth of an action is not known to us until after the action, God knew the action as a truth before there were actors.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
And yet you have not shown how His foreknowledge of our actions affected those actions in any way.

I shouldn't have to. It should be sufficient to say that He knew what we would do before he created us, so in effect he created our actions.
We have no choice other than the one that he knows we'll make.

edit btw thats the ramifications of god knowing the future , and that isn't my position

Originally posted by frogstomp
I shouldn't have to. It should be sufficient to say that He knew what we would do before he created us, so in effect he created our actions.
We have no choice other than the one that he knows we'll make.

And yet so easy to test, don't you think?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
And yet so easy to test, don't you think?

Impossible to test.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I'm not confusing any such thing. I cannot be A-ing if I am P-ing. God knew before I decided whether I would be A-ing or P-ing and 'allowed' for the same to occur. Just as the truth of an action is not known to us until after the action, God knew the action as a truth before there were actors.

Sorry, my notation confused you. 'P' refers to a proposition. 'A' refers to an act of yours. So, if an agent knows that P, then it follows that P is true. If an agent knows the proposition 'you will A', then it is true that you will A, even prior to your actually A-ing.

Well, if you're so sure you're not confusing causal implication with material implication, then you should be able to explain the difference between the two. I'll give you a few minutes to execute an internet search...

Originally posted by bbarr
Sorry, my notation confused you. 'P' refers to a proposition. 'A' refers to an act of yours. So, if an agent knows that P, then it follows that P is true. If an agent knows the proposition 'you will A', then it is true that you will A, even prior to your actually A-ing.

I thought I was being funny, but I guess I wasn't. God knowing the truth of what I will do before I do so in no way takes away from my free will act. What you are suggesting is akin to hyper-Calvinism, and essentially makes God the bad guy.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Impossible to test.

Give it a shot.